I want to explain the part of the scriptures that My 2 cents quoted to you VJ.This statement that was the temptation of Jesus's by Satan declaring that if he worshipped him, he would give him all the kingdoms of the world, was a spiritual trial that he passed with flying colours.
Vj ~ Jesus was supposed to be God incarnate, meaning that He is Omniscient, so if he is all-knowing why the need for him to be tested or tempted? By the way, there is no such figure as Satan, if there was he had to be created by God and one would think God being all-wise and all-perfect would know better. Satan is myth because evil was not a creation but inherent in matter which is eternal.

Not very bright I wouldn't think.
Vj ~ If an idiot chooses to use the heart instead of the intellect, how would the idiot know who is bright or not?

VJ be carefull what you say. Reading my 2 cents post which he has quoted you from your own site, I see only bile and hatred spewing forth from your mouth.
Vj ~ I repeat, "the truth hurts" and only the ignorant can be hurt by it, but the hurt (pain) now is very minor in comparison to the pain and misery to come if not taken care of now.

Reply to CWS - Date:04-15-06
being as wise and intelligent as you claim to be
Vj ~ My claim is justified since I have researched all the religions that I have constructively criticised. Now, I am asking you in all sincerity, how could your rebuttals have merit, when you know nothing of my faith?

To argue that �because the alleged followers of a particular religion do not all act in accordance to its teaching, therefore the teaching itself is not of God� is FAULTY REASONING.
Vj ~ So why were there none in Christianity who came in support of any of these Greek philosophers, as you are doing now?

PEOPLE HAVE FREE WILL WHETHER OR NOT TO ACCEPT AND OBEY.
Vj ~ Quite true, so aren't you guilty of making the same mistake as your ancestors to use freewill not do research of my faith also?

IF IT WERE TRUE THAT NATURAL LAWS DO NOT ALLOW FOR SINGULAR OR UNIQUE EVENTS, THEN IT WOULD FOLLOW THAT HISTORY IS FULL OF IMPOSSIBILITIES.
Vj ~ Exactly, it is why your religion (of myths, miracles) is false. Also, you won't be able to deny what the evolutionists confirm through science about human evolving from a lower creature.

Natural laws only DESCRIBE what usually occurs, NOT DETERMINE what CAN occur...Likewise, CHRIST�S BODILY RESURRECTION IS IN THE SAME CLASS of unique events.
Vj ~ What usually occurs, did occur and will or "CAN occur". We see old cars in a scrap yard, so when you buy a new car, how difficult is it to figure out your new car will eventually end up there at sometime in the future. Similarly, we excrete from the backside (usual occurrence), it meant we did so from the very beginning and so we will until the end, it is law unchangeable and since these laws are immutable we know what did occur in past and what can occur in the future. Likewise our physical body experiences birth once and death once, so likewise, if anyone dies twice it breaches the law.

Since Joseph�s typical contribution was made unnecessary by the Holy Spirit�s prior miraculous (NOT SEXUAL) intervention, Mary was still a virgin when Jesus was conceived and at the time of His birth....We all inherit our currently corrupted and selfish natures from our sinful parents so we are all born as �damaged goods� ..
Vj ~ The cause of the physical body is the reproductive element, which a spirit cannot produce, it is a law. A fool is a fool ("damaged-goods") by his/her own doing and if he or she must rise from such ignorance, it would have to be by his/her own effort and is not up to God to bend the rules or laws to do it.

....but also establishes the validity of His offer to grant eternal life to others...Only God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) and His inherent Goodness are eternal.
Vj ~ If only God is eternal, how can Christians be granted eternal life? Eternal means "that which has neither beginning nor end" since Christianity, Christians, their souls and their heaven were all created and therefore have a beginning, how can they last forever (or eternity)? Does your God has another meaning for word, eternal?

Unfortunately, by comparison with the rest of God�s creation, Satan became filled with pride (the first sin) and foolishly aspired to take God�s throne
Vj ~ So you are saying that both Satan and your God have backsides? That would mean that both would have to have their own toilet. God is a subtle spirit that pervades the whole universe, meaning that at no time there is anything physical about Him.

Reply to CWS - who holds the true interpretation of the bible - Date:04-17-06
I have definitely gleaned sufficient examples to demonstrate that neither you or your Swami know enough about Christianity to judge it.
Vj ~ We have judged all religions to be false, except ours, when they are not in harmony with reasoning (incest [Cain & and his sister-wife) cannot be origin of the human race), science (out of nothing, nothing can come) and in conformity with natural laws (the cause of the physical body cannot be from dust, but always the reproductive element).

YourDictionary.com
E�TER�NAL (adjective)
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time. See Synonyms at infinite.
2. CONTINUING WITHOUT INTERRUPTION; PERPETUAL.
3. Forever true or changeless: ie. eternal truths.
4. Seemingly endless; interminable. See Synonyms at ageless, continual.
5. Of or relating to spiritual communion with God, especially in the afterlife.

(noun) 1. Something timeless, uninterrupted, or endless.
2. Eternal God. Used with the.
Or from the online Hyper-Dictionary. Note meaning 3:
ETERNAL:
1. (Adj) Tiresomely long; seemingly without end; �endless debates�� �endless conversation�; �the wait seemed eternal�� �eternal quarrelling�
2. (Adj) Lasting for an indefinitely long period of time
3. (Adj) CONTINUING FOREVER OR INDEFINITELY; �the ageless themes of love and revenge�; �eternal truths�; �life everlasting�; �the unending bliss of heaven�
Or the Merriam-Webster dictionary: ETERNAL Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity

1 a � HAVING INFINITE DURATION, EVERLASTING; b � of or relating to eternity;
2 a � CONTINUED WITHOUT INTERMISSION, PERPETUAL; b � seemingly endless
4 valid or existing at all times, timeless
Vj ~ You interpret the dictionary the same as Christians interpret the Bible, they are all divided (into many sects) as to its true interpretation.

But simply put this is the truth, whatever is eternal (God, soul and matter) cannot die, perish or dissolve, because there is no beginning and no ending.

But whatever is finite ([created], Christians, their heaven and souls, the sun, moon, stars, the universe, a house, car, etc.) must die, perish or dissolve, because whatever has beginning has an end, a law without any exception.
I cannot make it any simpler that this.

Reply to Pam - Date:04-17-06
The heart and the intelligence work together, but then a idiot cannot be expeceted to know that, so therefore I make allowances for your ignorance.
Vj ~ So how does a jackass, without intelligence, gets the heart to work?

Reply to Pam - Date:04-17-06
I have to say that I see no difference between 'your God' and 'My God'.
Vj ~ Excellent work Pam, now the question is, do you see any difference between our God who created the world out of something (primitive ether) and the Christian God who created it out of nothing?

As each principle (wisdom, individuality, senses, actions, attention, etc.) is created ether becomes one degree less subtle, until it reaches the state of matter which is our current space. From there matter, the first element, becomes air/gas (2nd element), then heat/electricity (3rd element), then liquid (4th element) and finally solid (5th element), this explains the very slow and gradual scientific creation of the universe. Absolutely, there is nothing, for there is no space between two atoms.

It is a law that whatever is manifested out of matter is finite and must return to the primitive state again and cannot exist eternally.

As God prevades All, is in All, and has power over All, there cannot be any place where God is not in existence, all that is manifest and all that is invisible is supported by that which we call God.
Vj ~ Yes He pervades all and at all times, it is the reason He cannot take a physical form.

So therefore to say that God created the Universe and ourselves (souls) out of nothing, is patently wrong. This is my understanding.
Vj ~ So am I not right then to say that a God who sends "patently wrong" message is false?

Reply to - Date:04-18-06
It is not God who sends patently wrong messages, it is the understanding of many souls, individuals, who have altered the original message and thereby come to accept the wrong or altered message as Truth.
Vj ~ This is exactly what I have been disseminating all along - one truth for all in all ages. We as fallible beings do not change the rules in the middle of the game, why then would an infallible God change the rules in the middle of His game (human creation)?

Where are these guys, my2cents and Richard, are they really listening here?

If the Bible is wrong about the origin and/or creation of our universe, how can it be right about the much desired or sought-out quest of salvation?

Reply to CWS - Date:04-19-06
"Your objections are without merit".
Vj ~ Your rebuttals are valid ones and I will respond to them after we first clear up the matter of merit concerning your god and his bible (revelation).

1. Man is fallible but yet not even one rule is ever changed during play of any of the games we have invented. God is infallible (All-perfect) and yet in His game of human creation, still in progress, the rule (mode of worship) has been changed, an injustice. The question is, why?

2. "Revelation is a communication of something, which the person to whom the thing is revealed did not know before. For if I have done a thing, or seen it done, it needs no revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write it. Revelation, therefore, cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word revelation and therefore is not the word of god." Thomas Paine

   Revelation from God should have nothing to do with anything historical, for God is the creator of not only this solar system, but many others as science has now proven exist, as a matter of fact, it is beyond counting since space is infinite. So whatever is revealed here, had to be the same revealed in the other systems and therefore must be free of historical references.

Re: �Reasoning � incest cannot be the origin of the human race,� I would offer that incest, in and of itself, is not morally reprehensible. Starting out with one man and one woman, it would initially be necessary for their sons and daughters to marry their sisters and brothers respectively
Vj ~ That is according to your scripture and because your God started it that way you now must defend it by making up your own rules of what is moral and what is not. But to any rational person, it is highly erroneous to begin with.

(Of course, being already in a prior marriage relationship, a sexual relationship between parents and their offspring would be morally inappropriate, and while the Bible did report that Lot�s daughters had sex with their widowed father while he was passed out from drink, it NEVER condoned what they did).
Vj ~ Well, we question the conduct of men who find favor with God and yet faltered. Meaning, that they were not righteous to begin with, which really is not their fault but the god that were unable through "his word" to keep them straight. As long as sin is forgiven, man would allow themselves to be tempted in many ways, for they feel there is always a way out.

The reason for the need for laws against incest was not because of morality, but genetics. Initially the human race was pure and free of mutations. As time passed, mutations began to occur and accumulate to the point where if one married too close a relative, physical deformities would become increasingly manifested among their children. When that limit was reached, God gave Moses the laws against incest, not because marriage between siblings is was inherently immoral, but to protect the health and future viability of the human race.
Vj ~ This is another fault of your revelation, where all laws must be set out in the very beginning for all, depriving none. God is all-wise, All-perfect and all-powerful, if you believe this, then you must believe that all He has revealed in the very beginning, in its entirety, is good for all throughout all ages until the end without Him ever intervening again. Incest is an immoral act, which results in mental and physical infirmity, and can never be right at any time, whether it's in the beginning or in the end. the purity of man begins with purity in thoughts and action and that had to be the norm of the first age for whatever is created is perfect and or pure in the beginning.

THUS HAS GOD, BY THE MIGHT OF HIS CREATIVE POWER, EVOLVED THE EARTH, mountains and objects of all other shapes and forms OUT OF a point or nebula - NOTHING. If he can say that IN SOME SENSE it can be stated that God created �out of nothing,� why can't the Bible likewise teach that God created the universe "out of nothing," but simply with a different qualification (NO PRE-EXISTING THING)?
Vj ~ It isn't the same thing, he simply meant that there is always something (matter) but because it is invisible it may seem to be nothing. If we had only the Bible, what would have educated us to the fact that "out of nothing, nothing can come"? It would be rather foolish to explain the design, purpose and functions of television by saying it was created out nothing.

The universe DID come FROM something. GOD IS THE SOURCE � not that He composed matter out of His Own self-existent, spiritual essence (a teaching your Swami rightly denied), but that He simply called forth the material universe into existence �out of nothing� by His own almighty power to do so. Are we to believe that without a pre-existing material to draw on, the Infinite and All-powerful God would have been unable to create anything? You want us to believe we exist because God was just �lucky enough� to have some matter lying around? Such thinking shows an insufficient understanding of Who God really is.
Vj ~ There are three causes to the creation of anything made or created by man or God and they are an efficient cause (God or man), material cause (matter or material) and a common cause (space, time, knowledge and labor or instrument). There is no exception to this law. If we have the source, a carpenter, and no material there can be no furniture or house. The same analogy applies to God and since He is All-powerful, there is no need for him to perform magic, creating doubts among rational minds.

It would appear that while you and Vj both agree that the universe is eternal and that God fills the universe, if he accepts what his Swami says � that God IS NOT the universe, but is distinct from it � Vj must reject your pantheism. While the Swami was mistaken about matter being eternal, he was at least correct about GOD BEING DISTINCT FROM HIS CREATION.
Vj ~ The universe is not eternal, the material cause is, so are God and souls. God is indeed distinct from the other two, but He pervades them both.

Re: �Natural laws � the physical body cannot be from dust, but always the reproductive element,� again, YOUR GOD IS TOO SMALL. Also, you cannot argue that because a process presently continues in a repetitive fashion that this must be the way it came to be in the first place. If you follow that argument to its conclusion, you have no explanation for the origins of the human race. Even your belief states that God created mankind in the beginning (your Swami claimed �MORE THAN ONE� NOT THE RESULT OF SEXUAL INTERCOURSE� On the authority of this Vedic text it is certain then that IN THE BEGINNING OF CREATION HUNDREDS AND THOUSANDS OF MEN WERE BORN� men are DESCENDED FROM MANY FATHERS AND MOTHERS (I.E., NOT FROM ONE father and one mother).�). When this took place, there WAS NO pre-existing egg and sperm, or a �cosmic uterus� within which to form these alleged founders of humanity. You can�t fault our creation account without summarily dismantling your own. (I will say more later about the reason behind a single couple founding the human race as opposed to hundreds and thousands.�)
Vj ~ The cause of the reproductive element is food, therefore it was after vegetation and wildlife humans were created. The reproductive element was always the cause of the physical body from the first human and so it will be for the last, a law. Those created were the purest because they were specially created and not born through sexual union, deserving such a reward due to superior virtuous actions in the past birth, thus transcending the first age to be an age of purity (heavenly), no disobedience (Adam & Eve), no murder (Cain & Abel) and no adultery (Abraham). There is no dismantling here.

So the Bible�s assertion that man was composed of the �dust of the earth� IS in accord with the facts of science:
Vj ~ Again, you shouldn't use science to validate your cause, since the bible is not the source of science. Scientific theories are in the same mess as theological ones since both must confirm with natural laws.

As for your charge that Christians are divided, IT�S NOT AS IF ANY RELIGION HAS ESCAPED DIVISIONS � INCLUDING YOURS. Your own Swami spends vast amount of text explaining how other groups� interpretations of the Vedas are wrong (scolding them for polytheism is just one example).
Vj ~ It is not the same, we claim to have the true interpretation of the Vedas by placing a definition that is universal to what the truth must be - in harmony with reasoning and science, and in conformity with natural laws.

But simply put this is the truth, whatever is eternal (God. soul and matter) cannot die, perish or dissolve, because there is no beginning and no ending� But WHATEVER IS FINITE ([CREATED], Christians, their heaven and souls, the sun, moon, stars, the universe, a house, car, etc.) MUST DIE, PERISH OR DISSOLVE, because whatever has beginning has an end, a law without any exception. I cannot make it any simpler that this. � Vj The Bible agrees with you � to a point. FINITE, CREATED THINGS WILL PERISH OR DISSOLVE � INCLUDING THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE:
Vj ~ Truth is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and never to a point, leaving a portion in doubt. Finite is finite there is no exception to the law and if there is, it is simply not true. It is only the ignorant will twist what is already the truth to be untrue.

So you see, there is no need for endless cycles of destruction and recreation of new universes. God made the one. It will one day be dissolved and replaced with a new and permanent heaven and earth which will last throughout eternity. OUR ETERNAL LIFE (IN SPIRIT) BEGINS NOW when we accept Christ as our Saviour, AND WILL CONTINUE IN OUR IMMORTAL, RESURRECTION BODIES in which we will enjoy LIFE EVERLASTING.
Vj ~ God is eternal, therefore creation and dissolution is eternal. What would your answer be, when asked what was your god, with no beginning, doing until this creation? Again, God is permanent, matter is permanent and souls are permanent and nothing else can be permanent for whatever comes into being is finite and must come to an end and if your god says the opposite then he is definitely a false god.

IF THE BIBLE IS WRONG about the origin and/or creation of our universe, how can it be right about the much-desired idea of salvation? � Vj A valid question, but that�s the point. It rests on a BIG IF. The Bible account of creation, fortunately, does fit the available facts.
Vj ~ And I am saying that the available facts are not in harmony with reasoning, science and are not in conformity with natural laws.

The reverse also applies. IF THE VEDAS ARE WRONG about the origin and/or creation of our universe, HOW CAN IT BE RIGHT about the much desired idea of salvation?
Vj ~ I know the Bible is wrong about the origin of the universe, likewise if you must know if the Vedas is wrong or right, you will have to travel the same path of rational knowledge as I did.

39. What are THE SUN, THE MOON AND THE STARS?
Q. ARE THEY INHABITED BY MAN AND OTHER LIVING CREATURES or not?
A. (Swami): They are worlds inhabited by men and other living beings, The Shatpatha Braahman 14:6, 9, 4. says., "The earth, the water, the heated bodies, the space, THE MOON, THE SUN, AND OTHER PLANETS ARE ALL CALLED VASUS OR ABODES, BECAUSE THEY ARE ABODES OF LIVING BEINGS as well as of inanimate objects." When the sun, the moon and other planets are abodes like our earth, WHAT DOUBT CAN THERE BE IN THEIR BEING INHABITED? When this little earth of God is full of men and other living beings, can it ever be possible that all other worlds are void? How can myriads of other worlds be of any use unless they are inhabited by man and other beings? IT FOLLOWS, therefore, that THEY ARE INHABITED.
Vj ~ Wherever the conditions of the elements of air, heat and water are present the possibility of life is a reality. Aren't we now looking for water or previous existence of it to determine whether there was life on Mars? The Swami is saying that nothing that God has created is useless, for if they do not have a life now, they did or will at some time and it does not have to be humans but any other life form (bacterial) suitable to whatever the conditions are. If you understand the science of creation, our planet was dead many times (minor dissolutions) over and will be many times over for another 2 billion years to come. So whatever is lifeless now, will at some time come alive as it was in the past.

Are we to understand that you are saying that it is �in accord with reason, science and natural laws� to believe that there is NO DOUBT that are LIVING BEINGS ON THE SURFACE OF THE MOON AND ON THE SURFACE OF THE SUN, and that we simply have not detected them with our current technology?
Vj ~What should bother you Christians though, is that if mankind had to rely on the Bible alone, we would still have been in the backward, tyrannical and barbaric dark age, we would have never come to know that the earth is round and that there are other worlds (solar systems), suns and moons, etc., and most obvious of all, is the science that made us aware of all these discoveries, its origin is not the Bible.

"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." Albert Einstein

I mean no disrespect here, but there is no way I could ever accept such a �revelation� as from God. If I have to believe this in order to embrace the �one true religion� I guess I am just out of luck.
Vj ~ Well, if you believe in a book (Bible) that spoke of supposedly 'righteous men' being deceitful, committing incest, adultery and murder, who didn't know the earth was round and still find favor with God, I can see how difficult it is for you to believe in a book (Vedas) that give me a Swami with an impeccable character and great wisdom to know what Christians didn't know but now know of the universe we live in.

I challenge you to provide EVEN ONE SHRED OF OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that there are live, material beings �abiding� on the burning, gaseous surface of the sun.
Vj ~ Why are you looking for such evidence now, when your Christian ancestors were deprived of it because of the Bible? How could it be justifying for you, when they all lived and died in lies? It is not science you must use to contradict the Vedas, but your bible. So what evidence from your bible do you have that the sun has a "burning, gaseous surface? You must assume that this debate took place before the advent of modern science so that all could have benefited from it and not only those after. And when modern science has discredited your Bible, how is it good enough to discredit mine? The process of creation was slow and gradual and not done in 7 days as your god did. One would have to wonder if it took him 7 days to bring earth to life, what is preventing him to do the same for the other planets? Well, of course, he couldn't for the bible does not speak of other planets or solar systems.

And granted that the Indian culture was the one of the first to contribute the valuable concept of Zero (The first decimal system was introduced in the 4th Century BC by the Sumerians of Mesopotamia, to whom the invention of writing is credited, however, they did not have a symbol for zero. The Babylonians knew about the concept of zero, but it was the Hindus who invented zero about 600 BC, the same time the Central American zero was invented), it displays AN IGNORANCE OF THE HISTORY OF SCIENCE to claim that �if mankind had to rely on the Bible alone, we would still have been in the backward, tyrannical and barbaric dark age, we would have never come to know that the earth is round and that there are other worlds (solar systems), suns and moons, etc., and most obvious of all, is the science that made us aware of all these discoveries.�
Vj ~ No it doesn't! It is obvious when India is the cradle of all civilization, the source of ethics and morals and all sciences, will eventually spread out to other nations as people moved and adapt into different cultures and regions throughout the ages.

IT WAS CHRISTIANS WHO FOUNDED MOST OF THE MAJOR DISCIPLINES OF SCIENCE that has given the world the scientific advantages we enjoy today (Isaac Newton � Dynamics; Johann Kepler � Astronomy; Robert Boyle � Chemistry; Lord Kelvin � Thermodynamics; Louis Pasteur � Bacteriology; Matthew Maury � Oceanography; Michael Faraday � Electromagnetics; John Ray � Biology; Carolux Linnaeus � Taxonomy; Joseph Lister � Antiseptic Surgery; Georges Cuvier � Comparative Anatomy; Gregor Mendel � Genetics; Louis Agassiz � Glacial Geology; Leonardo Da Vinci � Hydraulics; Blaise Pascal � Hydrostatics; John Woodward � Paleontology. There are others, but this is representative).
Vj ~ I have no doubt that Christians, even Muslims and numerous people of other cultures did contribute to science, but so did a huge number of atheists, it still doesn't bring the Bible any closer to anything scientific, which is my argument.

Neither have you substantiated your repeated charge that those who wrote the Bible �didn't know the earth was round.�
Vj ~ What more do I have to say to substantiate such a claim when all of Christianity before Columbus believed the earth was flat. They went so far to persecute those who claimed otherwise and even warned Columbus he would fall over the edge. Now, do you know of any Christian who came in support of any of those Greek philosophers or their families at the time of their distress?

Btw, God�s laws were not given to us so we could save ourselves by following them, but to prove our inability to follow them.
Vj ~ It is not God's fault that people are weak and lazy physically and/or mentality. In the same way, if your car fails to serve you, it would be because of a lack of proper maintenance procedures (following the manual) and not the makers. In such a case, the makers don't send you a new car, likewise, if you fail to apply God's true manual (Vedas) to your life, He is not going to intervene to save you.

It is only when we realize that we have broken God�s laws and are unable to save ourselves by keeping them that we are ready to listen to the saving message of the Gospel.
Vj ~ When one realizes one's weakness, the idea is not accepted as such and remain weak waiting to be saved, but to strive by effort to seek the truth to free oneself. I know how difficult it can be for Christians and others of hopeless faiths, after all, that is all they were taught from generation to generation. You are drowning and I am throwing you a rope, but you keep on insisting God will send someone to save you. How sensible is that? However, the situation is not hopeless for many now, good reasoning must be the path to begin the journey and the swami has shown the way, and if there is any excuse, it will be because of a lazy mental attitude.

Surely you didn't simply rely on dismissing the case for Christ�s resurrection by merely claiming that (according to your beliefs) �miracles just can�t happen� because they are �against the law�?
Vj ~ It would have been simple for you also, had you any idea of how the laws of nature function - the dead under any circumstances cannot come back to life, what goes for one goes for all, it is a law. Simply put, we all die once and no one twice.
Neither is Christ as Christians believe nor Krishna as the Hindus believe, is coming again.

I was reviewing your recent posts, I noticed that YOU OBJECTED WHEN I SAID THAT ADAM WAS SPECIALLY CREATED from the dust of the earth (chemical components). Your stated objection was that �the physical body cannot be from dust, but ALWAYS the reproductive element.� Later YOU MAKE AN EXCEPTION TO THIS RULE, stating �The reproductive element was always the cause of the physical body from the first human and so it will be for the last, a law. THOSE CREATED were the purest because they WERE SPECIALLY CREATED AND NOT BORN THROUGH SEXUAL UNION.� That�s what I have been saying all along. So it's OK for the Vedas to make an exception at the time of creation, but not the Bible? I wonder what you base this double standard on?
Vj ~ There is no double standard and there is no exception to the rule, I also stated the cause of the reproductive element to be food, which you haven't mentioned at all. Even though first humans were specially created without sexual union, the cause was still the reproductive element.

You also argue that the Bible is wrong because �nothing can come from nothing.� When I point out that the matter was created directly by God (definitely SOMETHING), you dismiss it, insisting that He had to use something that was eternally at hand.
Vj ~ If he created matter, the question still remains, from what did He created it from - nothing?

I responded with, �Are we to believe that without a pre-existing material to draw on, the Infinite and All-powerful God would have been unable to create anything? You want us to believe we exist because God was just �lucky enough� to have some matter lying around? Such thinking shows an insufficient understanding of Who God really is.� Your reply was to repeat that there had to be a material cause � �There is no exception to this law� and that the option I suggest would be �magic.� So you ARE saying God was LUCKY after all. Just wanted to clear that up.
Vj ~ There is no luck or magic in creation. Let us put it this way, no one intelligent can create anything from nothing and God is All-intelligent. It is His nature to excercise His creative energy, so creation and dissolution have been going on for all eternity as God, matter and souls are. This is not the first and neither will be the last. I ask you earlier what was your God doing since he had no beginning until this creation?

You seem SURPRISINGLY RELUCTANT to just come out and say it, preferring to quote your Swami again. Why is it so hard for you to simply say, �Yes, I believe there are beings living on the sun�s surface � not because we can confirm it, but just because the Vedas say so�?
Let me make it even simpler for you.
DO YOU BELIEVE THERE ARE BEINGS LIVING ON THE SUN�S SURFACE OR NOT? YES, OR NO.
Vj ~ Who won't be reluctant considering the clear and present danger of dense ignorance?
Should my answer be in the affirmative, what guarantee is there that my family and I won't be persecuted by staunched Bible-believing Christians, as so many philosophers and their families were for saying the earth was spherical?

Reply to Pam - Date:04.25.06
I will try and find the book that this subject is discussed in and post it here if I can find it.
Vj ~ Dear Pam, books alone, in the absence of perfect reasoning, cannot give us the truth of the invisible or what is beyond our reach. The Vedas holds the truth, but yet over 1 billion Hindus, who lay claim to the Vedas as God's revelation, have no idea they prohibit idol-worship and other wild superstitions which they follow.

How do the people who used to bemuse us by walking on hot burning coals and such like actually carry out that feat also you could put a white hot spear through them and withdraw the spear and there would be no trace of a visble mark, these things have been done and seen to be done, so how is it done? Answer through breathing, a special name is given for this it is called Tumo, and I dont believe it appears anywhere in the Bible, but it is a fact that this is how these acts are performed. Those walking on red hot coals, do not even have one mark on their feet afterwards.
Vj ~ These things are done for amusement purposes and has nothing to do with spirituality. When we look at it, we assume the conditions of the feet that walk hot burning coals are the same as ours. These things are a tradition brought down from generation to generation, so they are trained from a very early age and in all instances, their bodies have been conditioned for the role they play.

It is like drinking alcohol for the first time, we come to despise the taste, but because of the effect, we continue on until the taste is no more a problem. The same with these people, to begin with, it is painful, but in the same ignorance of drinking alcohol, they too derive some sense of an effect on the body which they like and better yet when they have a huge crowd looking on, and so they continue (addicted) until it is no more a pain to them.
Also what you see on television as red hot, isn't actually that hot in reality.

Reply to CWS - Date:04.25.06
Hi Vj, So you HAVE NO EXPLANATION for how life could be possible on the surface of the sun. I thought not. Pam�s explanation that the sun is not hot after all is hardly compelling, but at least she offered one.
Vj ~ The bible doesn't have any clear explanation on spherical earth and most of all the plurality of the worlds, but yet that doesn't bother you. As I said many times before, God has no cure for a fool, and any kind of explanation from me, can't do it either.

For a THIRD time, you have refused to own up to your personal belief � and this time your excuse is FEAR of persecution?!?!? LOL, LOL, ROTFL.
Vj ~ Think about it, fear can never be with the one who has condemned all that is false, especially Islam where retaliation can be swift and severe. My site contains in full my personal belief, of what is true and what is false, and if you have failed to come to grip with it, it simply means that you have much work to do in ingraining the proper reasoning habits to begin the journey. Simply put, the ball is in your court.

I can see it now� the �Christian militia� tracking you down via your IP address, surrounding your home� Suddenly they bust down the door, strap you into your lazy-bay and Oh NO! � force you to watch TV evangelists 24/7 !!! LOL, FAL. Thanks Vj � I needed that!
Vj ~ It is worst than that, they won't even permit me space and time on any television program to disseminate this truth. Why is there so much fear by the "Christian Militia"? Are they ill-equipped intellectually?

Now as I was saying, Pam is not reluctant to clearly and unequivocally state her position, and neither am I.
Vj ~ Actually, you don't have to, anything to do with bible to me is pure ignorance, it is the reason you don't know where I stand.

You on the other hand, act like one who is embarrassed by his beliefs.
Vj ~ I am so glad it is only an "act", wish I could say same for your ignorance. We fully know how stupid or stubborn a donkey is, but do you think he is embarrassed about it, not really, why? The donkey is in the stupor state, but what is so terrible is when a human, who is not embarrassed at all about all the lies and immoral actions in the Bible, finds him/herself in such a state.

I assure you, the only danger you may find yourself in is to find your beliefs challenged by others, with perhaps a touch of humour added from time to time.
Vj ~ Well then, I am enjoying it all, for, from where I am standing, looking at the Bible and its dark history it is all humor, and not just a "touch".

On the other hand, if it is rationally taken to mean the regular solar days which is decided by the movements (rotation and revolution) of the planets around the sun and accepted by all, how could 3 days be accounted for before it (sun) was created?
Keep in mind the solar measurement is a proven fact ascertained by the very science that discovered the sun to have a "gaseous" burning surface".

Reply to Omega - Date:04.26.06
Have you ever asked yourself why you're interested in the world's religions? I suspect it isn't just curiosity, but something more than that. I suspect instead that you are really searching for God. And I hope you won't get discouraged, but will persevere until you come to know Him.
Vj ~ Well, don't you think I am definitely in a better position of finding God than one who is forever caged in one's own belief system, completely ignoring what the others hold? And where is your will to persevere in investigating the others?

Reply to CWS - Date:04.027.06
Hi Vj, I couldn�t help but note that your quote was incomplete � conveniently leaving out of the end of the verse which puts things in perspective.
Vj ~ And haven't you noticed that those before the Bible in its entirety, had no quotes or revelation to guide them in morals, ethics and even science?

By providing light 3 days before the creation of the sun, God is telling us up front that He did not use an evolutionary scenario to create the earth (because this would require the sun to be created before the planets), while at the same time showing His superiority over the sun (knowing in advance man�s proclivity for sun worship � ie. the Egyptian�s belief in Ra, the Roman�s Apollo, the Greek�s Helios or Sol, etc).
Vj ~ So now, the science that convinced you earlier that the sun is a "burning gaseous surface" is thrown out to the dogs because it now contradicts your god's work of magic, unscientifically bringing about 3 solar days without the sun. And it makes complete sense to you?

Just a little friendly advice. If you are going to go after Christianity, then you have to go after the Resurrection. The ultimate power is the ability to conquer death, and if Jesus did not conquer death, then it is irrelevant � just another religion among many. If, however, He did raise Himself from the dead, then all of your counter-arguments are irrelevant � Christianity wins hands down.
Vj ~ Resurrection of the dead is a breach to natural laws which are unchangeable under any circumstances. God is is all-wise and therefore does His work intelligently within those laws. Again progression is always downward, a law, and if spirituality is growing as you claim by the growth of Christianity, then your 'spirituality' is working also against the law. So whatever flourishes in this the last age, can be nothing else but ignorance.

An ignorant person is so termed, because of his/her lack of knowledge in understanding the functions of these laws.

Physical embodiment is bondage (pain and misery) and conquering death is when the soul avoids it (emancipation) by the practice of yoga. Get it lame-brain!

Reply to CWS - Date:04.27.06
Dear Vj, Haven�t you learned yet? Name calling is the last resort of the intellectually bankrupt, as profanity is the last refuge of the inarticulate � the final stages reached by those with nothing of value to say. Such displays are tantamount to a �white flag� of surrender.
Vj ~ Actually it is a surrender, for I have no cure for a fool.

Here is more for a fool to feed on:
A god with no beginning finally woke up and created the present universe, and out of nothing too. He saw that it was good, which cast doubts on his omniscience and so smart was he, that he accounted for three days before he created the sun. Then he created a garden, where some fruits were forbidden to eat, leaving one to wonder why he created them or the garden in the first place. He then created one man (Adam) and one woman (Eve), both disobeyed him, not so good. After being tempted by Satan, an ex-angel (Lucifer) who turned wicked all by himself, again his own creation, he had them all kicked out of the garden. Who took care of the garden after that only he knows, I guess.

The first man and woman beget children (Cain and Abel) leading to the immoral actions of incest and physical and mental infirmity. Then this god favored one over the other fomenting hate which eventually led to murder. So now after disobedience, came incest and then murder.

Next, he wilfully deprived Sarah of children, leading her husband (Abraham) to commit adultery (seducing Hagar, his housemaid) and if that wasn't bad enough he turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt after she turn back to look at god's great work of burning a whole city (Sodom & Gomorrah) murdering innocent women and children, leading him (Lot) to commit incest, impregnating his two daughters. Next, since he deprived them of ethics, morals and sciences (no revelation), the world became awash in uncontrollable sins. Against free-will which he boasted is every human right to have, he flooded the world and murdered them all, including innocent children and all live stocks, except two of each. Apparently, he didn't think that incest could have resulted in such chaos, so he began his next world in the same way by spearing only Noah and his family.

Perhaps he went for a short nap again and after 400 years woke up to find his people (Hebrews) in bondage (slaves to the Egyptians), so he waited until every firstborn were slaughtered except one (Moses) who became a murderer to qualify for prophethood and then chose him to lead his people out of bondage. After their freedom from bondage in Egypt, they once again rebelled against Moses in the desert, doubting his power even though he turned the red sea into blood and split it before them in broad daylight. Anyways, he continued the pillage slaughtering 70,000 of Israel and after raising two adulterers (David and Solomon) to kingship and head of his temple, he probably realizes some changes were necessary.

He sent his son, or came himself (confusion here) so he says or didn't, then found out he was born a bastard, who change the rules, bringing further division between themselves (inquisitions) and his people (Jews) and his newfound religion (Christianity). Perhaps, under such a circumstance (born out of wedlock), his people (Jews) branded him a heathen and sent him to the cross where he was crucified taking the sins of all of mankind, as Christians claimed, with him. The Jews should be loved and not hated, for had it not been for them, Christians would not have had the free gift of salvation by his blood.

As if this weren't enough a problem for him, 600 years later or 1400 years ago, he sent out his archangel Gabriel to make things right, and as usual the only person qualified to be a prophet of his liking, was an illiterate, epileptic, murderer, adulterer and polygamist and pedophile (Muhammad). Now we have three Abrahamic religions desecrating, plundering and pillaging (Moghul atrocities and the holocaust) at will, bent on destroying each other, turning the whole of creation into total chaos.

Did he (Christ) say he is coming again? What for, one wonders? If he didn't get it right in 6000 years, how could he possibly get right at any other time?

Reply to Omega - Date:04.28.06
If you correct conceited people you will be insulted.
If you reprimand evil people you will only get hurt.
Never correct conceited people; they will hate you for it.
But if you correct the wise, They will respect you anything you say to the wise will make them wiser... Proverbs 9:7-9
Vj ~ Vj ~ If you get hurt correcting "conceited people", it simply means that you are not wise or wise enough to do the job.
And if the wise need to be corrected, then it is obvious they are not wise to begin with.
On the other hand, if the world must be made a better place for all to live in peace and harmony, won't it be the "conceited" and the "evil" ones who must be "corrected" and "reprimanded" by the wise?
It is when a fool tries to speak for the wise, the fool gets hurt..

Here is a man, who was born a Hindu, at 14 doubts began to cloud his mind on idol-worship and 21 he ran away from wealth and an upperclass family for good in search of truth. He was never married, never drank a drop of alcohol, never smoke or take drugs and never consume flesh of any kind. He was strong, humble and kind even to the end helping his assassin to escape.

"Hearing the great fame of the sage, we made up our minds to pay him a visit, and accordingly went to Anandbag, near Durga Vati in Benares, in which romantic garden he has taken up his temporary residence. The Rishi-like appearance of the venerable Pandit, his cheerful countenance and child-like simplicity, made on our minds an impression never to be effaced. When he began to speak, manna dropped from his lips, and the wise instructions he gave us forces us to the conviction that the golden age of India has not altogether disappeared." The Hindu Patriot - 17th January 1870.

Reply to Pam - Date:01.05.06
One must stand firm in Truth and not be blown about by the wind, even your Swami knew this.
Vj ~ And where have I indicated that I have swayed away from it at any time?

So may I suggest you put away your dislike of Christians as they cannot harm you at all, this you know already.
Vj ~ I hate not the person (Hindu, Sikh, Christian, Muslim, etc.), but his/her actions (ignorance), so my dislike is for what is false. I tell it as it is, without any compromise. It is painful, but so it is with any other disease.

Reply to CWS - Date:02.05.06
You say, �In my faith all souls have the opportunity of salvation, if not this birth but at some later birth to come.�

But �all souls have the opportunity of salvation� in Christianity. To infer otherwise betrays a lack of understanding of the Christian faith.
Vj ~ I don't see how that is possible when Christ said, "I am the way, the life and the truth, no comes to the Father except through me." It stands to reason that if you are born a Hindu, Muslim or Jew, etc. or even an atheist, the chances of salvation through Christ is quite impossible for many. It is an injustice to change the rules in the middle of the game and God being Just can never be the one to do so. You have made it quite clear that you are ahead of the Swami when it comes to salvation. It seems your god's interest is in those who are continuously stained in immorality (evil) than those entirely free (pure) of it.

In case some may be misled by your statement because of their unfamiliarity with Christian teaching I would like to clarify that the Bible does indeed state that GOD DESIRES ALL TO FIND HIM:
Vj ~ God is All-bliss and as such is never in need of anything even desires. If your God had such desire, why are billions born into other religions where there is no hope and not Christianity?
It boils down to the same injustice, to be born in subhuman conditions (pain and misery) for no fault of their own.

The choice between these two (Vedas and the Bible) is clear - Pride or Humility.
Vj ~ Yes it is clear, one requires the "pride" of working your ass off for it (effort), while the other you have to only sit on your ass and in "humility" it will fall in your lap.
In reality, we know that latter, does not even work in our day to day life if we must be successful in any field of earning a livelihood.

Reply to CWS - Date:05.05.06
To All, In comparing the Vedic religion with Christianity, it is clear there are major and irreconcilable differences:
Vedas: Only the Vedas are the word of God.
Bible: Only the Bible is the word of God.

PS � If you are still in doubt, ask yourself, �Do I eventually want to be like Vj, or would I rather be like Jesus?�

Vj ~ Here are three unquestionable tests of true revelation:-

1. Vedas were revealed in its entirety from the very beginning of creation, meaning that God is just, depriving none (at any time or any age) of any of His revealed message.
   The Bible prompted this response from a Christian missionary, Prof. Max Muller:

   "If there is a God, it would be unjust of Him to deprive millions born before Moses of divine revelation."

2. Vedas are the source of all sciences known to man.
   The Bible is unscientific misleading millions to believe the earth is flat and it is only 6,000 years old.

3. The Vedas are free of historical references, meaning they were revealed in the past as it is now and will in future creations, as well as present in other worlds (solar systems) of living beings unknown to us.
   The Bible, with its historical references is not only an indication that God is limited to this planet alone, but that he is partial to only one race, another injustice.

1. Your claim that they are eternal is based on the belief that they were eternally in God�s mind, but this is no different than what Jews, Christians and Moslems claim about the Bible and the Koran.
Vj ~ It is different, as the scriptures of Jews, Christians and Muslims do contain historical references. Whatever is in "God's mind" as you put it, has nothing to do with history, as history is literal and God's revelation is all allegories. History is man-made and therefore it is only one of several means of of evidences to shed some light on our past.

The issue of fairness and opportunity has already been addressed (post # 436). In addition, the first few chapters of Genesis indicate they were written by Adam and his immediate descendents, later compiled and edited by Moses into the Book of Genesis. This being the case, the Bible�s revelation traces back to the beginning of creation.
Vj ~ You are as stupid as they come, were Adam and Eve the recipients of the "Ten commandments" or was it, Moses? Furthermore, I don't know what you took "entirety" to mean, but the New Testament makes up the Bible and has nothing to do with Adam and Eve. Grow up man!

2. The Bible does not teach a flat earth (these objections have also been answered earlier, but you keep ignoring or forgetting this.
Vj ~ Perhaps it is because you are ignoring my question on why so many Greek philosophers were persecuted by Christians for saying the earth was round?

Historically it was the Christians who have founded the majority of scientific disciplines, and Jews have likewise made outstanding contributions to mankind�s knowledge of the arts and sciences. To claim the Vedas are the �source of all sciences� goes far beyond what the facts warrant.
Vj ~ Historically the atheists too, have contributed mostly to scientific principles of our modern age but it does not dull the fact that Vedas are the source of all sciences.

"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace; human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grandmother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only." Mark Twain

"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." Albert Einstein

"The advance of western civilization has been partly a story of gradual victory over oppressive religion, and these brilliant doubters were men and women who didn't pray, didn't kneel before altars, didn't make pilgrimages, didn't recite creeds." James A. Haught - "2000 years of Disbelief."

You contend the earth has been around for billions of years, and that mankind has been around millions of years (even though writing only goes back a few thousand)? � Prove it.
Vj ~ If the Bible could be proven, why are they still so many atheists and non-Christians? So you see only an idiot would ask for proof when it comes to the most abstruse science of the Divine. There is proof, but the proof is only of benefit to the individual who acquires it by strenuous individual effort. The idea of the Rishis who alone have the proof, is to show us the way to the proof. It simply means that one in an ignorant state can never comprehend the proof unless one begins the process of reasoning guided by the correct knowledge.

3. The God of the Bible, being the only God there is, is the Creator of the entire universe and all within it. He is therefore not �limited to this planet alone.�
Vj ~ He is not limited to this planet alone, but to one race, as his 'messengers' were none other. He even took all his time following the history of man on this planet, meaning that any other life on any other solar systems would have been deprived of his attention.

That He chose the Jewish race as His vehicle to bring His written word and the Saviour into the world does not make Him �partial,� because they were to take His message to the world.
Vj ~ Man you are an idiot, you said earlier that the message was already given to Adam and Eve, but apparently that weren't good enough so he had to choose a whole race and "savior" to spread it to the rest of the world. In spite of the "written word" it did not prevent 400 years of bondage, and after wandering in the desert or from country to country, he sent a "savior" which led to further hatred, anti-Semitic diatribes and 6 million (chosen people) to gas chamber. Whoopi! I hope he is not sending the same guy again.

If all it takes to prove partiality is that God works through a particular people, then it could equally be charged that your claim that the Vedas are His message and He chose to send them via the Aryans demonstrates bias as well.
Vj ~ No, it is not bias at all, considering all races emerged out of South Asians who first received the Vedas. India and China are the two most populated nations on earth, and rightly so our history points to Tibet as the origin of the human race. Secondly, it is only South Asians change in complexion, depending on the region (tropical or cold) they lived, which meant that we descended, not from white or black, but the middle order. Before 5000 years ago, there were many races (including the Mayans and Incas) but all were Aryas, follower of the Vedic religion.

5. Only the One True God can wield the ultimate power to conquer death itself.
Vj ~ The power to conquer death (emancipation) can only be done by personal effort through yoga (study and practice) and not just handed to you.

Christ�s resurrection is the historical foundation upon which Christianity rests. This establishes Jesus� claim to be God incarnate, and as the physical manifestation of the One True God, He knows what He is talking about, and His authority is final.
Vj ~ His authority can only be final when none is deprived. Millions before Moses were deprived of the Ten commandments and Mayans and Incas and most of civilization were deprived of the whole bible.
What is, was and will be, a law, unchangeable, if there are no resurrection of the dead, angels, splitting of the seas, mana from heaven at present, there were none before and none will it be in the future.

That is why we need God to reveal Himself, as on our own we would never be able to discern the entire truth about God.
Vj ~ So idiot, why hasn't he revealed himself since, aren't there more (4 billion) disbelievers now than when he 'did' 2000 years or 4000 years ago? I know for a fact he would score better, having the whole world (6.5 billion) on his side. When revelation is given to guide mankind to salvation, why does he need to reveal Himself again and again?

While there is more than enough evidence to clearly establish that Christianity is the One True Religion, those who are UNWILLING to accept it will always be able to find some excuse to reject it.
Vj ~ Read my lips sir, true religion must exist from the very beginning of creation for all, depriving none. Truth must be in harmony with reasoning, science and both confirming to the immutable laws of nature. You don't know much less understand the functions of natural laws, so you are not an authority on what is consisted of true religion.

To CWS: The New Testament makes up the Bible and has nothing to do with Adam and Eve. � Vj And so is your lack of understanding. You aren't even aware that the Bible is comprised of both Old and New Testaments.
Vj ~ All I have to understand is that the Bible is false, and it was not revealed in its entirety (whole) to all in the very beginning of creation, an injustice. Can you not understand that?

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. (Luke 6:45)
Vj ~ Did millions born before Luke knew of this quote? If not, it is another injustice of your god.

You have abundantly shown what is stored up in your heart - and it's nothing to be proud of.
Vj ~ Any feeble mind that is proud of a book which exalted the disobedient (Adam & Eve), murderers (Cain & Moses), Adulterers (Abraham, David & Solomon), and those who committed incest (Cain, Noah, Lot) to the level of god, can hardly be the judge of what is stored up in my heart.

I shall continue to pray for God to open your eyes before it's too late, but this conversation is over.
Vj ~ I have a better idea, if he is so good at answering prayers, why not ask Him to make you a weekly winner of the lottery, so that you can feed all starving children of the world. I am so sorry that you are leaving again my Christian friend, there is so much to gain. Anyways, thank you again and all the best.

Here is prayer for you:
A few guys went every day besides= the walls (wailing wall) of Jerusalem and offer prayers. After 40 years they were asked by an American journalist how they felt with the escalating violence and sensless murders every day. They said it seems they are talking (praying) to wall.

Your kind of prayer (or all those who claim to speak to Him) also is like talking to the wall. God is All-bliss (His nature) and never can He interrupt that constant state of bliss to listen to anyone. Prayer is about reminding ourselves, of what we must strive for, to elevate the mind, soul and body, using His revealed knowledge and Him as the inspiration (glorification) to acquire it. Secondly, if God has to listen and answer prayers or constantly send messengers or come himself(intervene), then it is obvious what He has revealed is not good enough which will contradict His attributes of being All-powerful, All-perfect and All-wise and even Omniscient.

It is the same reason a car comes with a manual. Think of the chaos if all car owners had to make daily and constant contact with the car-makers on when, where, how and why to service the car.

Ignorance is root of prejudice. You are so dense in ignorance that you can't acknowledge even one single rational idea that I have put forward in this 23 pages of dialogue, simply because you feel and as Bible indicates any other race, but the white race is too inferior to have any direct contact with the Divine.

So it is sensible to first seek the correct knowledge (revealed) before disseminating, praying or praising.

Added by Vj Just added to the ten most wanted list by the FBI - Date:05.10.06
Warren Jeffs of the Church of Latterday Saints, prophet, polygamists, pedophile, sex offender, rapists and probably a thief and murderer in many ways. Nothing new, really, if it should find its way into pages of the Bible.

Who of sound mind could justify the religion of Christianity granting this vile wretch heaven (through repentance) instead of my swami or even me?

Even worst, while he is enjoying heaven, the agonies of his young innocent victims will continue to haunt them for a lifetime. Seems to me, they are unjustly going through the pains of hell already, for no fault of their own.

PS.
The Bible did speak of new bodies, but didn't say anything about memory loss, as it will be a horrible thing for these children to remember for all eternity.

Added by Vj - Judas, traitor or not? - Date:05.11.06
Now after being vilified as a traitor for 2000 years Christians are now trying to adjust to a new theory that Judas was one of the most favorites of Christ disciples.
Unfortunately, this does not hold good for the Christian God ("the truth shall set you free'), since millions have already gone to their graves knowing Judas was a traitor, a lie.

When I began my research into Christianity a number of years ago, I found out that Judas could not have been a traitor, for two reasons:

1. Jesus was a public figure who preached in the open (sermon on the mount) and in synagogues, meaning the he was well acquainted by many. So why he had to be pointed out to unless he was a coward hiding behind a veil or preaching in the dark?
   
2. And if only by his blood Christians are saved, then it was necessary for him to be crucified (killed), meaning only a disciple of great courage could do the job and be praised above all the others for it, especially if the act called for committing suicide after.

What we must do VJ is discern and not judge.
Vj ~ I am not just a "we" as you and the others are, for I have established what is the truth, by a universal definition, which gives me the authority to judge what is false and what is true.

Definition:-Truth must be in harmony with reasoning and science and both conforming to natural laws.Originally Posted by CWS
You are quite right that Jeff Warren belongs to the MORMONS, which despite calling themselves the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" has nothing to do with either genuine Christianity or the Lord Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Vj ~ Well couldn't he be saying the same of your sect also? This shows that the Bible is definitely the work of ignorant men, for no one can justify its true interpretation with any kind of validity, in terms of a definition universally suitable to all.

Reply to Omega - Date:05.13.06
Vj,
Wake Up and Smell the Coffee, all of your recent post talk down People like myself are fed up with your holier than thou, atititude.
So make a change in your approach or please take a hike.
Vj ~ You can't stand the truth, can you? When you are down how can I not "talk down"? Does it not make sense, that it is only untruth can be "talk down". Changing my approach is to become a fool also, but I don't see how one fool praising or respecting another fool's ideology gets a fool any where in life, muchless spirituality.
Taking a hike would mean that you have something to hide, my friend.

Here is another talk down for Christianity from BBC news science.

"It was traditionally thought that before European colonisation, the Amazon had no advanced societies."

After they (Mayans/Incas) were discovered, the Christians spent 50 years obliterating all traces of an advanced society, to save themselves the embarrassment, the Bible was not the origin of ethics, morals and science.

"Instead of naked and timid savages, gathered together in tribes independent of, and often hostile to, each other, struggling for subsistence amidst the difficulties of uncultivated nature, unacquainted with the simplest arts of civilized life, they here beheld populous nations living under the dominion of powerful monarchs, subject to the rule of systematic governments and established laws, skilled in arts and manufactures, enjoying all the benefits of organized societies, and dwelling in cities which seemed to the dazzled eyes of the new-comers to rival in magnificence those of the Old world."

From the dark ages of Christianity shows that if we have now become civilized, the credit definitely goes to something else other than the Bible.

1. The Davinci Code - fact or fiction?
1. The Bible - fact or myth?
Who really can prove either to be true or false?

This quote comes to mind - The Danger of a Mediator

�Slavery and thraldom of the worst kind ever follows in the train of �gurudom� (prophethood), it utterly enfeebles men morally, intellectually and spiritually.� The last reformer.

When will it ever end for Christianity?
CNN - A man is suing the Catholic Church, demanding proof that Jesus existed.

Two quotes to ponder on:
1. "Justice is truth in action." Benjamin Disraeli
2. "Only the wisest and stupidest of men never change." Confucius

Listening or reading most attentively with a calm mind to the lectures of a learned man, and more so if the subjects are of divine Science, because it is the most abstruse and the subtlest of all the sciences.

Thinking over what one has heard or read in retirement, and in removing doubts if there be any by questioning the speaker. Questions may sometimes be asked even in the middle of a discourse if the speaker and the audience think proper.

Rationalizing is the next step. When all doubts are cleared after hearing or reading a discourse and thinking over it, let the enquirer enter into a higher condition (see the prelimnary stages of yoga) where the mind alternates between the correct knowledge and wrong knowledge whether it is the same as he had heard and reasoned out or not.

Posted by jacsimo - 07-11-06
Those in India Dear V.J. I dont know if you live in India or are in Canada, no matter, I wish to offer sincere condolences for the atrocity which has hit railway commuters in Mumbai/Bombay. I pray that peace and love comes to those of hard hearts and that they change their ways, not just for the sake of the world, but for their own sakes too.

I ask the Father of us all, to heal the wounds of those left broken hearted and desolate at this mass loss of life and to give comfort to all who grieve this day, in all parts of the world.

Let the Light pour forth it's healing balm and let men and women seek peace and love and refuse to accept hatefull thoughts in their mind.

Reply to jacsimo - 07-13-06
Thanks Pam, but....
but we should reflect on the greater tragedy of this world, than a few deaths here and there every day, where more than 6 billion people are daily engaged in the worship of no god or a false god.

Surely, if I didn't have the wisdom to understand what kaliyug (unrighteousness) brings, I would have been in remorse with every event such as these as they occur. Sadly for the world, the worst is yet to come for those who cannot or refuse to apply good reasoning to what they now believe in to be true.

Obviously, prayer, as we have come to know it to be is not the answer for it looks as if God has abandoned us. But in truth, the world have completely rejected and revile the one true religion, the only cure. You or I cannot save the world, but we surely can save our own soul and that is where we must begin if some good can come about.

I know, the insanity of the religion (Islam) that brings about such chaos, in the name of God, is outrageous. First, they conquer, then they divide and now they are bent on destroying what has left of it.

Reply to jacsimo - 07-17-06
The immutable laws of nature
Hi V.J. as we are in the day's of the kaliyuga, ( the end days of a cycle) all that we see must pass away, and is passing away. Vj ~ True, all things finite (created), including all Abrahamic souls and their heaven, must come to an end, a law. The one thing we know for sureity is that this will and is passing away to make way for a new 'heaven and a new'earth, where violence and misery will have disappeared from us all. Only Love lives, that is the truth of the matter
.Vj ~ One thing I know for sure is, those who are immersed in the worship of false gods, as indicated by the one true religion, definitely won't be there to enjoy or be part of it the next time around.

Reply to Omega - 09-07-06 - Omega
Hi Ted, Pam Craig and Onedone, I suffered a stroke, coupled with a collasped right lung, and suffered while i was in the ICU for 4 days. I did not envision any light or tunnel while i was in a coma. How I pray that when my time is up, I may see the brilliant light and travel up the tunnel, to meet Him face to face.
Kindest and warmest regards always,
Vj ~ While all religions lay stress on the 'joy' of heaven only in afterlife, true religion not only guarantees it afterlife, but stresses on experiencing such heavenly joy in this life also.
Instructions on how to acquire the correct knowledge and put it into practice to free the physical body and mind of diseases (stroke, collapsed lung, etc.) and other severe discomforts (from boredom, excessive heat & cold, etc.) of any kind.

Isn't it strange that God who is Protector of all would completely ignore even the present pain and sufferings of the supposedly 'righteous', Pope John Paul, the vicar of Christ (Parkinson's), Billy Graham (prostate cancer), Pastor John Wesley (stroke), etc. ) only promising wholesome joy in afterlife for all believers, even the very wicked through repentance?

It is only in ignorance (void of good reasoning) one suffers in spite of how much one claims to be righteous. Meeting "Him" face to face after such a (painful) condition is false hope driven by the concept of a false dogma.

Here are two of the many rebuttals on BBC fitting of my reaction.

"The pope was right to say what he has said and for such a peaceful religion the followers of Islam have a tendency to use �the threat of violence� when they don�t like what they hear. This is a free with free speech.
David Slater, York

Muslim clerics, scholars and leaders should also recognize that the actions of Islamic militants, terrorists, Hizbollah, Hamas, Iranian presidential rhetoric and al-Qaeda do far more to villify Islam in Western minds.
Stuart, Waldorf, MD, USA

Reply to jacsimo -09-15-06
Hi V.J. how goes it with you, ok I hope.
Vj ~ I am fantastic Pam! I also thank you for dropping by once in awhile.

Now are you stating here that if one follows your 'true religion', then one is going to be free from any disease or suffering. Seems to me that is what you are saying. If so can you prove that this is so, is everyone who follows your 'true religion' in absolutely perfect health? If so I would be delighted to hear about it.
Vj ~ True religion when practiced is called Dharma, until then it is only religion like any other. Practice entails personal and consistent strenuous effort and the result is the complete control of the mind. Pain and sufferings are not only the result of diseases but also boredom, excessive heat and cold, attachment (materialism), etc. so even if the physical body is affected by them the mind does not record it and the aspirant continues life with uninterrupted joy. I am 60, and up 4 hours before sunrise every day, doing the same thing over and over that I began 25 years ago, enjoying the best of health, showering twice daily with cold water, etc. I am not saying that all are gifted with the sanskaras to follow, but I am sure there are a few who have the will to do so, if guided correctly.

It is not God who makes us suffer or who makes us ill, it is us, ourselves who believe in sickness and ill health that carry that self-made burden.
Vj ~ I agree, and ignorance (lack of true knowledge) is not the work of God, but man himself. Likewise, it is never His mission, anywhere in creation, to intervene to save the fallen (ignorant).

But I am waiting with great expectation that you know something that none here already know, you have discovered the secret of perfect health.
Vj ~ The secret to perfect health is not what you know, but the will to put it into consistent practice. The "secret" was discovered by the first human beings since the beginning of creation, I am merely passing it down as the Rishis did before me.

Reply to suiteheaven 10-03-06
Bismillahi Ar-Rahman ar-Raheem (In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful) Logic, Science & Understanding
1. God has no family, partners, needs, helpers and the obvious - no sexuality.
2. History states God communicated to the Last Prophet (Muhammad -peace be upon him) the Last Words of Divine Truth and Legislation through the Archangel Jibraeel (Gabriel).
To become a Muslim or learn more www.al-sunnah.com
Vj ~ Here is a fool defying "logic" and "understanding" he knows nothing about. The first statement is all true but look at the second one he makes, with the next breath contradicting himself. Isn't the angel Gabriel a "helper", in helping to deliver the message and Muhammad a "partner" in spreading it and now sitting next to Allah in paradise interceding on the behalf of all Muslims? It also, shows that his god is not here, there and everywhere (omnipresent) since the message had to be sent. Meaning, it takes one dense in ignorance as him "to become" a Muslim.

Posted by Vj - 12-19-06
Can a rich man enter the kingdom of heaven?
Why the rich strive to become richer when,
"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

They (Bill Gate, Ted Garner, President Clinton, George Cooney, Richard Geere, Madonna, Angela Jolie, etc.) not only know how to get rich but they also think they have the answer to all the global calamities (from global warming and extinction of wildlife to victims of war/terrorism/destitution, aids, cancer, tsunami and earthquakes, etc. facing mankind today.

How sensible is it, to spend so much time and money in trying to save the world and its unfortunate inhabitants while showing utter neglect for their own souls? Having more money than brains, isn't the way to save your soul, muchless humanity.

The true hero is one who first save oneself, for only one knows how to save others. But in a world immersed in dense ignorance, the latter would hardly be known muchless be considered a hero.

Wealth without Faith is Dead just as Faith without wealth is Dead
Vj ~ Faith without reasoning is just as dead too.

Wealth is within you just as Faith without wealth is within you
Vj ~ Wealth (money) cannot buy health, so strong in health is strong in wealth while poor in health is poor in faith.

Abraham became wealthy Joseph became wealthy just as many Good People.
Vj ~ "Good people" do not commit adultery, the result of poor in faith.

For God does not deny wealth When Wealth takes 2nd place
Vj ~ Then he is a two-faced God - "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

Reply to Omega - 12-21-06
and Vj God is not Two faced
Vj ~ And tell me Richard, if you are yet to learn that "good people" (wisemen) don't commit adultery, how would you know your God is not two-faced or not?

Have you not read "Thou shalt not commit adultry?
Vj ~ What an injustice of your two-faced God, poor Abraham was deprived of it (ten commandments) no fault of his own, but what was David and Solomon's excuse?

Sin is in the genes of mankind passed down from one generation to the next generation
Vj ~ Here it is, the whole truth of sin which cannot be found in the bible. Sin is inherent in matter of which we are made up of, so, "there is no turpitude in drinking alcohol, eating meat or committing adultery, etc., for it is the natural way of created beings, but abstinence bring great reward." Manu

Reply to jacsimo - 12-22-06
Hi Richard and V.J. this saying is simple to understand when you understand the ways of Spirit.... But those who forsake those things and seek the spiritual knowledge and wealth, will find the kingdom within. Within this kingdom are treasures beyond one's wildest dreams and images, they are not of this world.
Vj ~ Spiritual knowledge has only one source and it cannot be acquired without reasoning guided by the correct knowledge through the practice of yoga.

Posted on CNN -12-2i-06
Goode wrote that to "preserve the values and beliefs traditional to the United States," an immigration overhaul was necessary to avoid "many more Muslims elected to office demanding the use of the Quran."
Ellison: Lawmaker has 'a lot to learn about Islam'
The Council on American-Islamic Relations had asked Goode to apologize, saying the remarks sent "a message of intolerance that is unworthy of anyone elected to public office."
Vj ~ Muslims are quick to point out intolerance of any other kind against them, but when it comes to the Quran, which is completely intolerant towards non-muslims, they see no evil in it.
If intolerance is "unworthy of anyone elected to public office" we can easily say that man is fallible, but when it is an 'holy' act of God (Allah) himself, who is supposed to be infallible, what are we of the civilized world suppose to think? The grim reality they must face as muslims is that saying the word "bomb" or "hijack" during flight which can get you into serious trouble has now become a lesser threat than the words "Allah hu Akbar".

Posted by Vj - 01-21-07 - Where it all started?
The atrocity of Islamic barbarism and tyranny that we now experience is nothing new, it began centuries ago and like an incurable contagious disease it kept spreading to different parts of the world as exploration of new lands were discovered. It will no doubt lead to the end of this civilization as we now know it, but to blame the entire Arab race for it, is an injustice without first stressing on where it all began.

Had it not been for the immoral and unrighteous action of adultery, Abraham seducing his housemaid, a bastard would not have been born to start the vicious demised of the human race.

"And he went in unto Hagar (his housemaid), and she was conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress (Sarai) was despised in her eyes...And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram." Genesis 16: 4, 15, 16

Reply to Omega - 01-23-07
Hi Vj Wisdom and Common Sense are rare indeed.
Vj ~ Dear Richard, I know, but you must be wise, how else would you know "Wisdom and Common Sense are rare"? It is quite obvious that such rarity can never be a reflection of the largest religion (Christian faith) in the world. And finally, after that, nothing else you have written of God, Abraham and the others constitutes wisdom and common sense.

It was legitimate for Abram to have intercourse....
Vj ~ There is no legitimacy outside of any marriage and if there is intercourse it is a sin and God can never be the one to sanction it.

....but the evil that Hagar brought upon them was that she would not give up the stone idol and God was angryand God was angry.
Vj ~ Anger is a sin and God who is All-pure, All-wise and All-bliss and can never be guilty of sinning. This shows that you are ignorant and the god you worship is totally false.

Which one's wisdom states that there is more than one God.
Vj ~ Mine, which need the use of the intellect to understand!

You obviously think so, because you continually state that other's have the false God
Vj ~ I don't "think so" I know so. If the others weren't false, how could I have possibly come up with the idea of the one true religion? We have had this discussion before where I said "out of nothing, nothing can come" and if there is a god (of the Bible) that created this universe out of nothing then it is definitely not the same God I worship.

Reply to jacsimo - 01-25-07
Hi V.J., yes we have been round the block a few times, I must admit, LOL.
Vj ~ I have to admit also that you haven't learn anything yet, but that is ok also, since you have often declared you have no use for the brain (intellect).

Now you know as well as I do V.J. that a 'idea' is only that and itself is not Truth.
Vj ~ If you had any brains at all you would have noticed the "idea" is still linked to a definition to what truth is.

Frankly speaking, you are ignorant and in such a state you can never define truth muchl ess to tell me what the truth is. You see what you are really discussing is religion and not God.
Vj ~ I am discussing both, it is up to you to make the distinction.

And religion is not God either, as you of wisdom are bound to be aware of.
Vj ~ My wisdom tells me that when a religion is false it is not God, but when there is the truth and only truth in religion, it is God.

An idea is a conception, and a conception is not a fact.
Vj ~ A conception is fact when it is in harmony with reasoning and science and both confirming to natural laws. If you don't know how to apply them you are not an authority on religion, God and the truth.

God in actuality is not tied to any religion or scripture or doctrine or creed.
Vj ~ God is tied to the truth and that is what I propagate and if you are not willing to use the intellect there is no way you can speak of or for God.

The mind makes up many concepts,
Vj ~ When fed with the correct knowledge the mind ascertains what is true and what is false and so it is with the inner senses.

So I say to you, what you are really agruing and debating about, is mere mortal conceptions bound in different covers with names such as the Veda's, the Bible, the Koran etc.
Vj ~ If all reasoning is guided by the correct knowledge there is no way our experiences can be different. We would have nothing to debate for our thoughts would have been in harmony with each other.

Reply to jacsimo - 01-26-07
V.J Iam sorry to say that I have to say truthfully that your knowlege is limited, your mind it limited and in fact you yourself are ignorant of the truth.
Vj ~ I am sorry for you also, but compulsion being so you won't be able to avoid the pain and misery to come for your soul. If I am ignorant of the truth it is because of you, who knows what it is but has so far failed to give me a definition for it.

Reply to jacsimo - 01-26-07 - The art of learning is to stop talking and listen.
VJ When you tell me something that is worthwhile, I can promise you that I will be 'all ear's'. Until then Iam copying this little article especially for you, courtesy of the Daily Om site. I hope you can listen and learn.
Vj ~ I have listened then learned that virtue practice in ignorance is still ignorance. Pampering the ignorant, as the author of the OM SITE has done is not going to enlightened anyone. In reality, only the truth can set us free, but it also hurts the ignorant that is. Therefore, since what I propagate hurts, it is the truth.
Kaliyug is the age where human souls in the billions, due to ignorance, will be relegated to lower species in their next birth. Compulsion being so, only a rare and courageous few with the will to do honest inquiry will survive the onslaught of future pain and misery.

Relply to jacsimo 01-26-07
VJ, dearheart, I never knew you believed such twaddle.
Vj ~ You can easily prove it to be "twaddle" by putting a definition to the truth.

Please excuse me while I laugh.
Vj ~ It is what fools do best, they laugh now not knowing how much they have to cry later.

Now what lower species were you thinking off, you have got to be kidding, honestly, you have.
Vj ~ I know it is difficult to understand that is so, but it is the law karma that dictates the punishment to fit the crime (sin). Every tree, animal, insect, sea creatures, bacteria, low subhuman condition, etc. are living entities with a soul. They are in that condition because of past sinful actions of the human soul. For example, those who commit murder will take the body of a tree, call it solitary confinement for a number of years.
Forgiveness of sins is a false philosophy. What a man sows, that will he reap, no more and no less - it is called justice!

Reply to jacsimo - 01-27-07 - Put my definition of truth to the test before attacking my wisdom.
So if you see ignorance in another, look first within yourself and remove the ignorance which is with in yourself first and then you are better able to teach and guide others.
Vj ~ So why are you trying to "teach and guide others" when you have not removed "the ignorance within yourself"?

There are millions in media, television and on forums like this one all around this world professing to know the truth, including you and I, but the difference is, I have put forward a universal definition as to how I have arrived at the truth.

Everywhere I have undertaken the task of propagating the truth, I first laid out this definition, be it my own site, this forum or anywhere else. This is what any sensible, unselfish and honest person will do.
Therefore, before launching an attack on my wisdom, first, try putting my definition to the test and if you can't do it, know that you are fool beyond any cure known to man and God.

Know that no one, not even you can define Truth.
Vj ~ That is exactly what a fool, who has made no effort to examine or discuss the definition given, would say.You are like the frog who claims his little pond be the whole world in spite of being told of the vast oceans.

VJ, I have read your definition on Truth. It is still twaddle.
Vj ~ I agree fully with you, it can't be any other way for anyone in such an ignorant state. Think of it (try to use your intellect a little even though it might hurt), does it not make good sense, that if I have taken the bold step to proclaim the truth, that I should back it up with a definition, universal to all mankind? At the very least, I have shown them the method or the way those before me did it so that they can be free to accept or refute.

Why have you delberately lied to me, when you say, if you remain ignorant of the Truth it is because I haven't given you a definition of Truth. It is all my fault.
Vj ~ It must be true then that you are fool because so far you didn't tell me it was a lie.

God is beyond deifinitions, and you know that, or at least you should know that
Vj ~ I know for a fact that He is indeed beyond definitions to a fool but not to the learned.

Now as I have said before, there are a few points there in which I can resonate strongly, and there are other's that cause the site to come tumbling down. Are you willing to keep a open mind?
Vj ~ One who welcomes constructive criticism has an open mind for one knows it is the only way to clear all doubts to promote harmony. So why don't you point them out so that we can discuss them rationally like a good and honest student would do.

If I could give you a definition VJ it would only be more fodder from which your would smugly reassure me that Iam ignorant, wouldn't you.
Vj ~ You don't have to give a definition, you can just tell me what's wrong with the one that I gave.

I get the feeling that as a teacher, you would be the last I would look for.
Vj ~ I understand for I have been to school also, and I know that students who didn't perform well were always the ones unhappy with their teacher.

Do you not feel that students need to be encouraged and not berated as ignoramases.
Vj ~ I couldn't agree more with you, I am the teacher alright, but it is I who decide who is the student and so far there is nothing to indicate you are willing to be one. It's so simple, the teacher lays out the subject matter, the student then read or study it, and then ask questions where the teacher responds and if there is still doubt, it continues until subject becomes clear to the students or in the case of true religion, the thoughts of the teacher and student becomes one.

The teacher that belittles his students, belittles himself.
Vj ~ The truth is, when it comes to the subject of true spirituality, if a teacher can be belittled, he is no teacher to begin with.

Reply to Omega - 01-28-07
'Conceited people' - Proverbs 9:7-9 will add to their knowledge. If you correct conceited people you will be insulted. If you reprimand evil people you will only get hurt. Never correct conceited people; they will hate you for it.
Vj ~ It is true, that they will insult, hurt and hate and even kill, but it will be an injustice to deny "conceited people" the right to be rehabilitated. No one, even "conceited people", should be deprived of the truth. So the teacher should be one wise, who is free of vanity, who is not moved by praise, who is never offended by insult and who is never afraid of death.
"Let him say what is good for another, even though it may offend." Swami Dayanand.

But if you correct the wise, They will respect you
Vj ~ If the "wise" needed to be corrected then they are obviously not wise to begin with. It is the nature of the wise to propagate the truth while denouncing what is false.

anything you say to the wise will make them wiser.
Vj ~ True, a wise man draws nectar (wisdom) from poison (ignorance), so it is good to listen even to the "conceited" also.