{And that is exactly what many notable Arya Samaji pandits have been doing since the days of the Swami.}

{And before you start propounding Swami Dayanand's message you should understand it well yourself together with the message of so many other Arya Samaji Pandits.}

{ I understand Vedas being apurusheya and I hope you understood well what I meant by the hopelessness of the exclusivity and finality of revelations.}

{You have quoted from shatpatha brahmana XI 4/2/3 "in the beginning god revealed the four vedas rig yaju sama and atharva to agni vayu aditya and angira respectively." Can you see names and history in this quotation?}

{It does not matter if Vedas were revealed 5000 years ago or five trillion years ago. What matters is that Vedas were revealed only after Creation (for those rarest of rare rishis to be there).}

{That means Vedas were revealed within created space and time. Therefore, it can't be denied that there is history in Vedas.}

{Please also consider that Vedas are revealed at the beginning of each cycle of creation and annihilation. Thus we must have the knowledge of sanatan (true for all cycles) as well as Yuga dharma (true for the particular cycle) from Vedas.}

{Is it wrong to say then that Vedas contain sanatan as well as samsarik dharma or must it be 'this or that'?}

{You have way too little understanding of Hinduism and Hindus to become sad thinking that "most of the choices hindus have made (idolatry and avatars over the formless unborn god) have been on the wrong side." Hindus have also decided not to throw away any scriptures including Vedas Upanishads etc. }

unlike your rejection of
everything not accepted by Swami Dayanand (irrespective of the views of later Arya Samaj pandits

{I don't think you and Vijai are any better thinking that Hindus killed the Swami still practice sati mistreat women and live in the time prevailing during swami Dayanand than those fools "who still pander to the west and believe that aryans invaded india and that soma was a liquor and that early indians were primitive..."}

{You write "if the river saraswati is mentioned in the veda" that shows you are not informed and yet insist "which is not true" which shows your prejudice.}

{It is absurd to insist that "if the vedas deal with the temporal then they cannot be eternal." What can possibly be the reason that eternal and temporal teachings cannot be given together.}

{Please refer to the mention of sanatan and Yuga dharma above. I have not come across a definition of revelation as that pertaining to eternal alone. Where did you get this concept from.}

{Thus simply because Vedas contain names of rishis kings rivers etc. the Truth in it does not cease to be so. You think so because of your conception of Vedas on the line of Koran and Bible - word of God.}

{You have asked "do you think it was mortal men that composed the holy vedas??" My answer is: I don't care. It is the truth in Veda that matters not how and where it came from. Your comments please.}

but such is the age of kaliyug.. i wonder how i will be able to properly defend our dharma without your help...

anyway vj i admire your courage for going to that board in the first place and speaking your mind whatever the consequences...

is there a lesson in this experience for the next time we team up to battle ignorance on another forum?

btw do you know of any arya pundits who are as well-read as vishal –

i would like to check the authenticity of his claims (please note i'm in no way swayed in my faith in swamiji.. in fact it has grown)

Namaste Ashegan - Monday 23-Aug-1999
"{You have quoted from shatpatha brahmana XI 4/2/3 "in the beginning god revealed the four vedas rig yaju
sama and atharva to agni vayu aditya and angira respectively." Can you see names and history in this quotation?}

Hindu: Anyway you can't wish me away.

Hindu: However, you can delete my messages if your free-thinking-natural laws are falling apart.

Namaste Ashegan - Tuesday 24-Aug-1999
hindu seems to have opposing views on the Vedas

vj it is evident that hindu has not made a thorough study of the satyarth prakash or the shastras as can be seen in his response to my quote from the shatpatha brahmana...

but we cannot wish him away from here no matter how stubborn he may be to reason..

i have no problem in replying to him but it seems that i have to repeat the same things over and over again which is getting quite boring..

how do you understand such a mindset?? sadly his arguments though interesting lead in haphazard directions...

should i continue my efforts to explain my beliefs to him vj?

{{Time to question yourself: can you rely on reason alone or must you take refuge in authority?}}

{{You say "i have to repeat the same things over and over again which is getting quite boring.." You have to repeat same things over and over again because you are not coming up with new arguments. Your last refuge is to point to Satyarth Prakash which I don't consider an authority.}}

{{You are finding my views on Vedas as contradictory because you can't think beyond your fixed ideas.}}

{{You don't understand the concept of Creation. If you understand that Creation refers to creation of space time and matter/energy more than anything else you will come to realize that all that existed before Creation is absolute (eternal free from time space and matter - Brahma). On the other hand all that succeeded Creation including gods Vedas etc. are subject to space time and matter. Now you can believe that Vedas are this or that but that remains your belief you can't justify your belief.}}

To quote Vedas regarding the nature of Vedas itself is absurd. It becomes a circular logic just as the one followed by people of Book (Islam and Christianity). Vedas are so and so because Vedas say so is not convincing.}}

{{Apurusheya or not eternal or not the point is that the Truth in Vedas can be verified independently of Vedas or not. If yes validity and authority of Vedas is (re)established. Otherwise you are simply appealing to authority.}}

{{This is what I have been trying to explain so far. Let me know where you find my views contradictory.}}

{{If you find my arguments interesting 'though leading in a haphazard direction' it does have some element of truth perhaps not well expressed by me perhaps not well understood by you.}}

{{Still if you are getting less interested in the discussion it is because you are too concerned to convince me }}

{{rather than to exchange views and learn if you can.}}

"Despite all this how do I know what He can do. He can change the rules of play anytime."

Hindu: "You are caught in your own web Vj. You can't live with me and you can't wish me away."

Hindu- That speaks volumes about your not being affected by others' remarks.

By the way could you give reference to the Light of Truth or Vedas about riding a jackass for some benefit in soul's liberation.

You say that you are wise enough to extract nectar from poison. Then why not do so from the Puranas as well?

If you cannot then you are not wise but a fool. Therefore, your statements are not authoritative.

If you say that poisoned grains should be rejected then I will say that this statement applies only to fools like who cannot remove poison from grains.

You are lying by saying that 'my' Gita teaches that 'the wise can draw nectar from poison.' It is actually in Manu Dharmashastra.

This proves that you are a big fart and just shoot off the hip. Knowledge and Vijay are two antipodes.

Here i come to Discuss things with you.

You can find my Ideas at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Articles/

Let us continue the discussion.

Hello Shrawan -Wednesday 15-Sep-1999
Let me ask you some simple questions.

What is your Opinion of Islam and Muslims.

. Do you believe in God, if yes who ??

Have you read Scriptures of Other Religion like Bible, Quran etc.

If you have read those scriptures, how would you compare them to Our Scriptures.

What is this discussion board for, is it just for Vedas Related Stuff or something else also.

Let me hear the answers from you yourself.

The Criticism of Bible and Quran which you have posted seems to be picked up from some Anti-Religion sites. Like the Bible part is from Infidels.org site and Quran is from Answering-Islam.org site. It shows a lack of research.

Putting something about Other religion does not mean you have read those scriptures.

Our scriptures i meant was Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads (I always thought you are a Hindu).

If it is for people who enjoy thinking then i think i will also enjoy it. Since i am already Banned from hindunet.org site i will get time to come here.

I did the reading before posting that stuff.

Now for some Questions : Are you an atheist?

Are there people among us (hindus) who can really think. After this hinunet.org thing i am skeptical about it.

Why is it that even though there are so many sites dedicated to maligning Islam and Christianity they are growing at a tremendous rate.

In a readers digest issue (some years back) they had provided the statistics where they said that Islam has grown by 300 % and christianity by 150% why is it so ???

Would you like to have discussion regarding Islam with Muslims if yes will you go to their Message Boards or will they have to come Here.

and found you also a typical Hindu

who is finally there to fight not to think.

You say that you cant spend all your time researching Rubbish sorry to say that it might be Vice Versa. That what you are doing might be Rubbish and other not.

When i said about the scriptures. Whatever i may become in future i am Hindu or Not but my origin will be Hindu similarly you must have seen people who go abroad they always have liking for India. They love India similarly even though i dont like our scriptures i will remain Hindu.

I would have invited some Muslim friends or given you the address of their boards but i am sorry to say i did not find you the right person.

You will never see me here or on any Hindu Discussion Boards now BYE BYE.

On a separate note, I recently sent an e-mail to Ashegan detailing a rather painful but enlightening experience I had with trying to explaining some Vedic truths to a person I respect deeply. The gist of what happened was that my words fell on deaf ears and the relationship turned very sour.

This however was not the most disappointing fact that I was so intent on proving that my point was Vedic above all else blinded me to the fact that the person to whom I was expounding these truths to actually believed in them already albeit couched in Christian terms. In this instance due to perhaps what probably was an hectoring bombastic approach both participants in this dialogue were not able to realize that they were essentially on the same side that of universal truth.

Swami Dayanand always emphasized that all dialogue should be conducted on the basis of ending sectarianism and promoting universal truths inherent in all religions. Swami Dayanand's rather forthright cutting approach in the Satyarth Prakash may have put the message across quite clearly in an era where there were more foes than friends of Arya dharma but did the Swami ever adopt a more tactful conciliatory approach in which there was leeway to accept the more pragmatic reality that there is in fact more universal truths that bind us together than divide us in the realm of spirituality and temporal culture?

From reading your bulletin board it has become apparent that the Swami's rather blunt style has been adopted by yourself. Before this experience I would have lauded this approach wholeheartedly.

Having now re-read your debates with people of different faiths I still feel that your kind of criticism is valid but surely there should be a lot more erudition in your responses to their distorted views. Rather than replying always with the same emotional rhetorical tone which can sound quite crude and vulgar at times I feel that we should be crafting intelligent Vedic and non-Vedic text based arguments.

Of course they should not be conciliatory in the face of ignorant views but is it not possible to show some respect for parts of their religious scriptures which accord with our own?

In these common areas if we choose to offend spiritual sensibilities where we have no right to we can expect more unwanted trouble for ourselves which is not good for us or for others.

as the promotion of universal truths is the only thing that will stop hatred and violence in this world.

In the Vedic texts there is a well known sloka which begins with what essentially should be our slogan in this debating arena 'Satyam bruyat priyam byuyat'- always tell the truth but speak it sweetly. It goes on to say that in doing so we should not say lies that are appealing to others ears so in that sense I admire your courage which is greater than mine in adopting this approach with vigour.

Please tell me what you think about this. Ashegan replied that he agreed that a more tactful but truthful way could be found.

What do you think? I would love to continue to tell others about Vedic Dharma but would appreciate your advice on how to do it more effectively.

Emotion and false sentiments of empathy for the opponent in the event of their defeat in an argument is not compatible with the virtues that a truth seeker should be instilling within him/herself.

As for your words on Diwali, what significance did it have in Ancient Vedic times? There are surprisingly no references to it in the Satyarth Prakash or the Sanskar Vidhi. Why? Please quote a Vedic authority which sanctions and explains the significance of this occasion.

I'd also be very interested to know about your daily lifestyle and how you manage to integrate the five mahayajnas as sanctioned by the Satyarth Prakash and the Sanskar Vidhi.

Yesterday was National AIDS day. I found out that India has roughly 12% of the world's AIDS sufferers.

The Indian Government I believe has launched a nationwide campaign to introduce the use of protection on a large scale for those infected and likely to be in serious danger of being infected or to infect others.

On a related topic what do you think his views based on Vedic teaching of course on abortion and euthanasia would be?

I'm particularly interested in his and your views on abortion as currently I am a member of the Association of Lawyers for the Defense of the Unborn an ant-abortion anti-pro-choice lobbying group based in the UK.

Although I must admit since I recently read that fetuses were removed from wombs when the use of Ayurvedic surgical techniques were prevalent in Aryavarta my views have been wavering in the realm of uncertainty.

Please now enlighten me on the scientific and spiritual significance of doing homa twice daily. Please point me to some relevant inspiring books!

Firstly as a matter of interest as a propagator of Vedic wisdom do you do it or do you join Bramachariji daily in performing it?

Secondly is it true that if one does not perform yajna /homa twice daily continuosly throughout the year then one should not bother doing it at all?

I heard this from someone who wanted to dissuade myself and others from doing so at home. He said that women in particular should be dissuaded from doing homa as they particularly are apt to breaking the pattern because of the 'days off' they have to take due to menstruation. I personally think that this was just an excuse on this person's part so as not to go through this 'bothersome' 'tiresome' ritual. I have very little knowledge about homa and would like to know more so I can put this into practice with intelligence.

. Namaste.

We have been practicing homa for quite a while in my household since before I was born actually and I am very keen to train as a purohit and gain the correct knowledge.

My Arya Samijist father is largely self-taught and has always encouraged his four daughters and my mother to study the Vedas and practice homa however as we have never lived within the Aryan/ Indian Community (we live in a rural part of North Wales) further guidance on correct pronunciation has never been available.

I have read and will continue to re-read the appropriate chapters of the Satyarth Prakash and Sanskar Vidhi from which I'm sure my knowledge will continue to expand but as Bhai said in one of his earlier postings it is also very important to have a guru. We can reach Swami Dayanada arguably our greatest guru through these books but I really believe actual practical knowledge is essential.

And here I'm afraid I have to humbly disagree with both of you on the daily practice of homa. It is essential for all Aryans once the correct knowledge and state of mind has been obtained to perform homa. Many of the environmental problems that we are facing today are as a direct result of the noxious pollutants that we are contaminating the air with. Severe shortages of rainfall acid rain unhealthy crops unclean air indoors and out are just some of the terrible things that we have to contend with in this ironically 'technologically advanced' world that we are living in today.

If following the logic that is normally put forward that in Aryavarta the air was much cleaner and sweeter the crops tens times more abundant and delicious no shortage of rainfall etc. surely in these environmentally degraded times people and on a large scale need to be doing homa regularly and doing it now.

In the manu smriti it is written 'na thishtthi thu yah purvah naupasathe yasch paschimam sa shudrvadh bahishkaryah sarvasmad dvijkarmanah' Manu 2 103 Whosoever does not perform sandhya twice daily should be considered a shudra and should be sent to live in a family of shudras deprived of the isignia of yajnaupovit. This should be considered to be the most important work of all.

Dayanand goes on to say in no less than the sanskar vidhi himself that both sandhya and agnihotra should be performed in accordance to scripture daily. In the all Aryan prayer books both rituals are termed as nityakarma daily duties. Surely, if our pure hearted Aryan ancestors (mature persons of all ages) felt it essential to do both in every household we should be learning performing and teaching our children this also?

"Aristah sa marto vishwa edhate pra pra-jaabhir jaayate dharmanas pari. Yam aadityaaso nayathaa suneeti-bhir ati vishwaani duritaa Swastaye" Rig Veda.

"In this world a man who is surrounded by (practice of) dharma remains unhurt. He prospers and becomes famous through his offspring. Him the aadityas lead with good guidance and wisdom for the sake of swasti across all courses of evil and adversity."

As study of ancient history will show you in all civilisations there were forms of fire sacrifice. The rain dances of native Americans, the Zambian rain shrines the Druids'solstice fire sacrifices the 'Iranian'(Aryan) fire altars frequent fire sacrifices references in the Bible and the Dead sea scrolls ( wherein the original non-supernatural story of Jesus lies) the offerings of food to the fire/kitchen God in ancient Japanese Shinto rituals(related to the Aryan Baliveshvadevyajna) are all evidence that homa was a worldwide phenomenon and played an integral part in these Aryan's lives.

I have read in an article in the Hindi-language press that homa is now being performed daily by 'non-Indian Aryans' in the US. Surely there is a lesson to be learnt there for us 'Indian' Aryans?

1.If according to this logic the planet is in a state of decay due to immutable natural forces so therefore one should strive to save one's self only what was Swami's purpose in maintaining in one of the Arya Samaj's principles that 'one should not only strive for one'self but look for the personal improvement through the welfare of others?

2.Why did he establish schools perform shuddhi en masse prescribe daily yajnas if we are all supposed to be eternally damned anyway?

3.Why did he go out of his way in the Satyarth Prakash to counteract similar Puranic arguments?

thus making the'kaliyug' theory an excuse for not abandoning false pride and propagating one of the most philanthropic and beneficial acts for all performing and propagating yajna.

What would Bhai's response be to the social education programmes that propagate these very same eternal ideas sponsored by the BJP's Arya Samaji leader Atal Vajyapee Bihari?

4.Given that Bhai is by his own admission a serious follower of the Swami's teachings why does he adopt a stance which is seemingly antagonistic to that of his Guru.

Whereas practicising self-restraint is a virtue that all throughout one's life one will have to struggle to do surely one should also apply such fervour to the performance of yajna?

If Muslims can stop work regardless of which culture and country they are living in and pray five times a day insisting that the host community respect their wishes surely we should be looking very seriously into our current priorities in our lifestyles?

To be very honest my current lifestyle is not conducive to doing sandhya yajna frequently but that I humbly admit is a failing of my own making not of this 'yug'.

I cannot discourage others who are more noble and Aryan than I from doing it on a regular basis as surely the practice of true Yoga entails the performance of yajna also.

when i asked him at one of his lectures on how i could further my propagation of arya dharma he told me the way i lived my life should be my lesson... is that way active enough?

i know muslims who live good righteous lives but i don't feel like converting...

when i asked about murti puja he advised that i do not correct them outright... he suggests for example that if they are performing a ganesh puja i should instead of decrying idolatry explain what ganesh means (he said 'the people' or 'mankind'??) and create at least a semi-functional consciousness of what they are doing..

another point he made in his talks was that religions have failed humanity in the search for meaning and that religious practise can be dispensed with but that we concentrate on universal ethics and spiritual dialogue between people of different faiths... what do you think?