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Rebuttal from:jared_000 - January 15, 2000
Vj ~ How come the Pope, the vicar of goodness, kindness, mercy and compassion, is stricken with painful and incurable diseases? Long-term happiness is the reward of goodness indeed, but if you don't know what is consist of goodness, then how is long-termed happiness possible? It is like a murderer serving life-imprisonment, claiming he is the happiest man in the world, by doing good for his fellow inmates.
Jared: Oh come on vijai, only the truly idiotic would equate piousness and wisdom to having or not having a disease. You are using middle age logic here. A disease is no respecter of wisdom, nor does it prefer the ignorant.
Vj ~ The wisdom to know is prevention and prevention is better than cure (modern medical science). Cause and effect - wisdom is the cause of perpetual happiness while ignorance is the cause of pain and suffering. In the state of ignorance, a fool cannot tell who is wise or who is a fool, but in the state of wisdom the wise can. Any disagreement with that, consider yourself ignorant.
Jared: Last time you had a cold, was it because you failed in your perfect exercise of wisdom? No, its because you got sick! Vj ~ Even in the time of pain, the wise feels joy because wisdom is superior to all pain and suffering. A mind that is feeble (weak and frail), wreaks the same havoc on the physical body, while a mind unattached elevates the soul, caring less for the pain of the physical body. A common cold comes and goes, but a painful incurable disease doesn't, there is a difference. Besides I welcome a spell of flu once in a while. It gives me the chance to fast, a good way of cleansing the body.
Jared: What is your vision of goodness vijai, Vj ~ I am proud to say that at 54, showering with cold water twice daily, I had no reason whatsoever to visit a doctor in 20 years, I must be doing something right (yoga)! When performing goodness it must first benefit the benefactor only then it can be of benefit to others. Think of the billions of dollars that could have been saved in Medicare, and better yet, so many millions could have avoided so much pain and suffering, by following my simple way of life.
Jared: Coming to the message boards and flinging your self-righteous DOGMA around? Vj ~ Isn't evolution your "self-righteous dogma" also? The difference is, mine is in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with the immutable laws of nature. I know where I came from and I know my destination and above all, I know prevention is better than cure.
Jared: The problem with your "wisdom", vijai, is that its concerned only with yourself. Vj ~ Purity and conviction of the soul - what is good for me is good for others and what is pain for me is pain for the world. It is the most unselfish and kindest act to first elevate oneself and then help others. Learning to swim while teaching others to swim can be very dangerous. You have got a lot more thinking to do yet my friend!
Jared: Everything to you is a reward or a punishment. Nothing IS for the sake of being. You have no concept of what its like to give something of yourself for the sake that it should be done, for everything you do is based around what you will or will not get from it. Is that wisdom, vijai?Vj ~ Is a doctor being selfish, utilitizing his time tediously for years to become a doctor? It is the same with me the only difference, the doctor takes care of the physical body and his reward is getting paid handsomely, while I look after both the body and soul, my reward is striving for higher wisdom and a better life to come.
Jared: If so then guess what, I want no part of it, I am happy to remain ignorant. Vj ~ You should be, since everything is by chance, it would make no difference whether you are wise or ignorant. No one desires pain and the cause of pain is ignorance, the choice is yours to make my friend. It may perhaps sound good (compassionate) to feel sorry for the unfortunate but if you are one of them, what good are you to yourself, much less them?
Jared: Try doing something with out concern for any reward or punishment, but rather for the sake that you know it should be done. Vj ~ It is a law (karma), that rewards and punishment is Divine justice and there could never be compassion and mercy without Justice. Ethics and morals are code of conduct if practice brings great rewards and the opposite, pain and misery. How can you miss it, it is everywhere where there is laughing and crying.
Jared: That is goodness, that is wisdom. When you learn that, you will be able to sit in your frailty, like the Pope, and still be happy. Vj ~ How can you or the Pope enjoy happiness, when neither of you, in spite of 'goodness and wisdom', know where you are going after this life? The Pope is just another miserable face to look at and it can only remind the intelligent of the fruits of unrighteousness.
Jared: Your strength will be that you have done right, and your happiness will be the satisfaction that it brings. Vj ~ I am already satisfied with my own goodness (individual prosperity), and there is where it must start - "charity begins at home".
Jared: Vijai, I just want to point out to you that you have fallen into the same trap that you condemn so many religions for. You are a hypocrite. Is that judgmental of me...Yeah, it is, but its the truth.Vj ~ On the contrary, a hypocrite is one who accepts or contradicts a doctrine or theory without further investigation or inquires of all sources available. Now I ask hypocrite! what do you know of my source (faith)?
Jared: Crawl out of your own ass and start seeing the world like it was mean, subjectively, and learn what wisdom and happiness really are! Vj ~ Even though you are the master of "wisdom and happiness", it is all for naught. Many find pleasure in killing, raping and robbing also and never get caught, but like your wisdom, it wouldn't matter since in the end there is no justice (punishment or rewards) beyond our criminal justice system. Why not define "wisdom" before making use of it so loosely?
jared_000 - January 21, 2000Vj ~ Running out of steam, my friend or you cannot stand the aggravation of true philosophy's logic.
Jared: Vijai, no arguments this time,
Jared: Iím just wondering, is your religion like Buddaism or Hinduism or something? Vj ~ How could it be alike when I have also contradicted them? And why in God's name would you want to wonder when I have provided several books and more on the subject? It is a hypocrite who seeks to contradict a faith without knowing a hoot about it.
Jared: I went to your site a long time ago, and while it had a lot to say about other religions, i didnít get a clear impression of what you believed. Vj ~ Speaking of impression, from my point of view, you don't have it for evolution either.
Jared: Id rather you explain it to me than linking me to your site, if you will.Vj ~ I would be more than happy to explain it to you, but again it would require not only desire but the will to read - you are failure in both.
Jared: You also mentioned the acquiring of knowledge as a means of happiness. What knowledge are you referring to? Vj ~ It should have been one of your first questions before concluding who is an hypocrite. And for the umpteenth time, it is a knowledge that is in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with the immutable laws of nature.
Jared: I mean, there are many types of knowledge to be acquired, and the knowledge that is joyous to one can be dull and boring to another. So what knowledge were you referring to exactly?Vj ~ A knowledge gained by removing all doubts is acquired by the practice of the correct knowledge by the process of the four subsidiary means of reasoning . But I must warn you that it is completely useless to a fool, compulsion being so.
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Rebuttal from: Rosamond - January 21, 2000
Rosa: Jared: -------------- VJ has a very, very specific interpretation of the Hindu, or Vedic religion. So specific it is unique only to VJ, who to my knowledge has had NO success peddling his brand of philosophy to the world at large.
Vj ~ "to your knowledge" is no kind of knowledge compared to the great wisdom of the Rishis of yore. The success of such a philosophy is reflected on the personal wisdom of those who disseminate it, however few they are, and not in numbers. And as false dogmas and atheism reflects the masses will for ignorance, then the true philosophy for only a few, conforms to the immutable laws of nature showing progression of righteousness (lack of true wisdom) downwards. In short, your ignorance or lack of will to investigate, is a splendid example of why it is rejected by the "world at large".
smcglasson - January 19, 2000Vj ~ So who gave you the authority to tell it what to do and when it must change? We have our own laws also, so framed by a constitution that guide society of what they must do. This brings order. It is the same with nature, the difference is that the laws guiding nature are infallible (immutable) and can never be breached by nature itself and God, much less man.
Sam: VJ - a couple things - first, the natural laws are not prescriptive, or telling nature what to do, they are descriptive.
Sam: They describe what does happen. Vj ~ "What does happen" is that these laws are steady, and if you don't know that, then you don't know the true description of what does happen.
Sam: Nothing that happens can violate nature. The natural laws are our understanding of how things work. Vj ~ True again, but if you truly understand how "things work", how can the cause of the physical body have two sources instead of one? How can progression be upwards and not downwards as all things finite are subjected to decay? What other laws do you know that have existed at sometime in the past and now ceased?
Sam: If something happens outside that understanding, then that doesn't mean it didn't happen, it means that we need to change our understanding of the natural laws.Vj ~ So why don't you change your understanding of the law, and accept the Christian belief of the dead coming back to life, in the same way? Since that too breaches a law, it wouldn't make any sense would it? In the same way evolution of man from some lower organism makes no sense at all especially to one knowledgeable in the operations and functions of natural laws.
Sam: And the nature of knowledge - you can certainly refuse to accept the proofs of evolution or anything else by simply raising your requirements for solid proof to an extreme. But think of the things that you accept with far less proof than evolution has! Vj ~ A belief, or theory or a 'scientific fact' that breaches the immutable laws of nature is solid proof that it is false. If you don't see it as such, then you are ignorant of the these laws and their functions too.
Sam: Why do you pick evolution for which to hold impossible standards of proof? Maybe you just don't want to, but that doesn't mean it's any less true.Vj ~ I have also picked on religion on the same basis, is it also any less true?
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Rebuttal from: jared_000 - January 22, 2000
Vj ~Running out of steam, my friend or you cannot stand the aggravation of true philosophy's logic.
Jared: Ahh, no! I just donít find your philosophy important enough to get agitated by its "logic".
Vj ~ Actually it makes sense, especially when you know nothing of it. But then again, without it there is still aggravation, which obviously is the result of your own ignorance.
Jared: Forgive my for trying to direct my energies into a more positive form of conversation, next time ill just tell you that your philosophy is stupid from the beginning! Vj ~ If you weren't an idiot, you would have known that all things rational are "stupid" to begin with, it is the later stages, as one becomes familiar, in time by reasoning and energy or practice, that they all begin to make sense.
Vj ~ Why in God's name would you want to wonder when I have provided a whole book and more on the subject? Vj ~ Since it is true that the masses dwell in ignorance, isn't it good enough a reason, to do some reflection (investigation)? What about if I am right? Besides, it is either you are faster reading than understanding, or a fool who simply look at the first page dismissing it because of fear. It has been 15 years and I haven't finished reading it (looking for more meaning).
Jared: Because your book does nothing but say what is wrong with everyone else.
Jared: It speaks of the ONE TRUE VEDIC RELIGION but then fails to say what it is, in any manner that would keep a normal person interested for any period of time, at least. Vj ~ If a "person" can't figure out even a tiny truth of the true Vedic religion after 700 or more responses, then it is obvious he/she is not intellectually sound.
Jared: It also lacks any stylistic form and quite frankly I was bored!Vj ~ Who won't be bored by just looking at it? Even those of stylistic forms become boring at sometime, otherwise why would styles constantly keep changing. In fact, it is wisdom, and not the style, that relieves one from banality. If you are looking for style, I suggest you visit a fashion show or something in that line. I honestly don't think you have the brains for anything else.
Vj ~ Speaking of impression, from my point of view, you don't have it for evolution either. Vj ~ Then far in the future and without any doubt, your legacy would not be far removed from that of a monkey.
Jared: Whatís unclear about it, your ancestors, as well as mine, were monkeys.
Jared: Over time, genetic changes occurred in these species, and we developed into what we are today. I make myself perfectly clear, It is you who wont define what you believe.Vj ~ Over and over I have also mentioned the source of the physical body to be the product of the reproductive element as it is now and will continue to be in the future, a law unchangeable, at any time. We were also given instructions, which means instinctive knowledge, which neither increases nor decreases, is natural and could not have been the source of acquired knowledge. Man had to be taught. Isn't this also clear of my belief or are you a complete nut-head?
Vj ~ I would be more than happy to explain it to you, but again it would require not only desire but the will to read - you are failure in both. Vj ~ I doubt whether monkeys have will or desire either. I was right you are a failure and so is your evolution by the same reasoning. Those of false dogmas are of the same temperament, their belief is good enough without any further investigation of the others.
Jared: I have no desire to read your website, for it is incomprehensible and unnavigateable, and what isnít in riddles is just talking down to others, my will is not to read it.
Jared: I asked you to explain it to me here, in a simple manner that can be understood, Vj ~ Could it be that it was already done in a simple manner, but being the idiot you are (lack of will and desire), you didn't comprehend it?
Jared: without wading through page after page of look-whats-wrong-with-everyone-else Iím-a-perfect-self-righteous-asshole DOGMA!, but that request was to difficult for you and you insisted on answering me with your head still stuck up your ass.Vj ~ Why would you seek such instructions from someone who has got his "head stuck up his ass", unless yours is stuck deeper, looking for some answers to get it out. You shouldn't have to worry though, if your ass is plug, you can excrete by the mouth, since breaching such a law seems to be no problem for evolutionists.
Vj ~ And for the umpteenth time, it is a knowledge that is in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with the immutable laws of nature. Vj ~ If it is BS, it can only mean that your head is still stuck, deeper, that is, up your ass.
Jared: What Ever! What the hell is this BS supposed to mean?
Jared: A knowledge is still too vague to work with vijai, are you saying that you only believe in what you see? Vj ~ In the first place how could you even begin to defend evolution when you know nothing of the faith that contradicts it? I don't think you have lost your tail yet, if you ask me.
Jared: Thatís what most intelligent people would assume at this, but none can be sure because you fail to explain it to them.Vj ~ If you were intelligent, you would have scanned all the information on my site to at least prepare yourself for a sensible debate.
Jared: If you want your way of thinking to catch on, you are really going to have to work on your presentation friend!Vj ~ And must you know that there is no cure for a fool, with or without the best presentation. It is you, who are seeking answers and not me.
Vj ~ A knowledge gained by removing all doubts is acquired by the practice of the correct knowledge by the process of the four subsidiary means of reasoning.Vj ~ Perhaps, but if you can hear this much, this knowledge is not meant for a jackass.
Jared: Your lips is flappin' but I canít hear ya, boss!
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Rebuttal from: cdarwin3 - January 22, 2000
cdr: Darwin was not a scientist. He was a "naturalist and author" according to Webster's unabridged dictionary.
Vj ~ It wouldn't matter what Darwin was, like the evolutionists on this board, if they lack the knowledge of the immutable laws of nature and their functions of order, there can be no truth in what they propagate
Rosamond - January 22, 2000Vj ~ Could it be the source of complex language? How could stupor be wonderfully complex? By such idiotic comments you'd think they are ready for university tutoring but somehow, perhaps appearance, denied them the chance.
Rosa: What VJ does not grasp is that apes have wonderfully complex brains.
Rosa: Probably more capable than VJ's.Vj ~ If they are (able to understand the natural laws), then I am amazed that you are still stupor.
Rosamond - January 23, 2000Vj ~ It may not confirm my "intellectual" superiority but it (immutable laws) has now become a pain in the side of evolution.
Rosa: Obviously one need not understand the immutable laws of nature to be vastly intellectually superior to VJ
Rosa: who has NO understanding whatsoever.Vj ~ Sounds good to me, your early ancestors hadn't any and yet these brainless twits were able to invent language and mathematics.
valender - January 25, 2000Vj ~ True, the natural way of created beings is being void of true knowledge and it is not necessary to seek the knowledge of the Vedas, but acquiring its wisdom brings great rewards.
Val: vj- so one does not necessarily need to ever encounter the vedas,
Val: for the wisdom held within them transcends them.Vj ~ It transcends them, like the science we have achieved today, but is it enough, since we don't know what is right or wrong of our science?
Val: and the truth is the truth regardless of how it is found?Vj ~ How would anyone really know what is consisted of truth, if there is no source knowledge to ascertain it to be so? No savage nation can become civilized without a source nation and no truth is a truth in the absence of a genuine source.
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Rebuttal from:jared_000 - January 25, 2000
Jared: The immutable laws blah blah blah.
Vj ~ It shows that some old instinctive habits are hard to die, are you sure your ancestors were not sheep?
Jared: What are these laws that cant be explained? Vj ~ Sure it can be explained, you excrete by the backside always it is a law, unchangeable; all things created are finite, decays and finally dies (progression downwards); rain comes from the clouds, etc. Similarly man from the reproductive element, steady from beginning to the end, a law unchangeable.
Jared: The reproductive element, so! Thatís not a law, its a method. And the prduct changes over time.Vj ~ The product may vary, but the cause is steady, this is what is consistent to an immutable law.
Jared: You approach the "laws" of the universe ass backward vijai, but I know I know, Im wrong.Vj ~ You could be right, since these laws can be violated, perhaps human in the past have used the "ass backward", for eating instead of excreting.
Jared: Im sure you know more than those people who have spent their entire lives studying the "laws of nature". Vj ~ The Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., spent their entire lives studying their beliefs too, and you know what like those who studied the "laws of nature" they all die believing it is right. You are in the same boat my friend, unless you become more inquisitive and impartial to investigate all philosophy (knowledge) that is made available to you.
Jared: A few years of reasoning made you the grand master right? Vj ~ Shows how much you are lagging. Reasoning is good, it puts a functional intellect to work, but reasoning guided by the correct knowledge is the result of a discriminating intellect, knowing right from wrong. Actually my years weren't few, when my days begin at 2 and 3 O'clock in the morning it will be equivalent to 50 years of your life.
Jared: Iím willing to bet that "immutable laws of nature" is something you read in a tabloid and you in your static intellect just took it for fact. Vj ~ Sounds more like evolution you talking about since it has much more to do with magic - a universe of design, law and order that came about by chance.
Jared: To constantly repeat a meaningless lines such as "the immutable laws of nature" show not intelligence, it just means you can memorize and repeat, Vj ~ Constant repetition is necessary especially when dealing with a dunce.
Jared: my dog can memorize and repeat.Vj ~ So why don't you let your dog on your keyboard since he is smarter than you are?
Jared: I do believe that this will be the last time i come to this board. Yes, you will say its because I cant handle truth and reason, but the simple fact is, I am learning to hate you. Vj ~ You mean you hate the truth. Hate is ignorance, do you need any other reason for your lack of true knowledge?
Jared: It has nothing to do with your logic, or reasoning, or dogma, its just that your, Iím so right attitude makes you a nasty person. Vj ~ Either that, or your ego is in control and only a fool loses control to his ego. It is another reason though why this truth is for all, even the nasty ones. Could you imagine, if you were in possession of this truth, a "nasty person" would have had no opportunity to become clean.
Jared: Goodbye Vijai, and Good luck peddling your self-righteous dogma to the world, you will need it.Vj ~ Wisdom is superior to good luck, I prefer the former which I already have. Thank you my friend, it was a wonderful dialogue, and I also wish you all the best in all your endeavors even though they are not as self-righteous as mine (smile).
Response to your latest post
Jared: Oh and one more thing, the problem with your "superior logic" is that is circular. Vj ~ I can't help that, the planet I live on is circular.
Jared: It doesnít go up or down, forward or backward, it has no direction and magnitude, it doesnít gain or lose. It just runs around and around itself, using itself to prove itself. Vj ~ You are right, it is called instinctive knowledge, which neither decreases nor increases, but don't worry, if your early monkey ancestors gave us all that we have now, then I can do no less.
Jared: Thatís what fundies do with the bible too, vijai.Vj ~ It couldn't be the same, since you neither hate nor run away from them. Your reasoning is superior to theirs because you know their bible, so you win with them. Such is not case with my faith, which you know nothing of and still don't want to know anything about it. Why? Because your ego won't let you lose this dialogue.
Jared: Again its just goes to show that all you can do is memorize and repeat, and like I said, my dog can do that.Vj ~ And like I said you have a very smart dog, perhaps he has the cure for an idiot, you should let him teach you, instead.
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Rebuttal from:harryll - February 05, 2000
Harry: Hello VJ....I see your still beating the drums of your dogmatic religious beliefs regardless of all reason nor any concern for truth...
Vj ~ It would have served you better, if only you could see, that you are still the same dumb jackass you were 744 postings ago. I have repeatedly told you that your truth lies in the future, so how can you show concern for something that you haven't found yet?
Harry: You are a truly sad case of obsession, you are missing so much...Vj ~ On the contrary, a wise man can draw wisdom from a fool so what can he miss?. I doubt whether a jackass would know though how much anyone is missing, when he is only content with his own stupor state.
Harry: There is no beauty or understanding, just despotism and ugly attempts at total control of human mind and spirit....Vj ~ So now we have "mind" and "spirit", and your reality is that the first humans evolved and all others are born, age and die like a jackass with no purpose.
Harry: Your "rules of nature" have nothing to do with the reality of nature, Vj ~ If there are no "rules of nature" (immutable laws) how do you account for the "reality" of law, order, purpose and design? If they are my rules then you and your forefathers before me must have been excreting by the mouth, hearing by the nose and smelling by the ears.
Harry: they are of your own contorted views and are not supported by any genuine science...Vj ~ As I have said many times before jackass, if you do not know the source of science, it cannot be genuine. The same goes for ethics and morals.
Harry: It's amazing that you keep trying to use them as the basis of support for your oppressively authoritative and ridiculous views...Vj ~ It is even more amazing to even get a jackass on two legs to understand these laws. If my views of these laws are ridiculous then your ejaculated penis must be spouting urine also, which means not all your children are the product of the reproductive element.
Harry: Particularly interesting is your fondness at suggesting that sex and bodily bathroom functions are the result of Man's own design and doing...Vj ~ Where have I indicated that it is man's own design or doing? Common sense would tell you that if it were man's own design and doing, then why bother to answer nature when it calls? The functions of organ of senses, organs of actions and attention are govern by the immutable laws of nature, to each its own specific functions and never otherwise.
Harry: As I recall, I, like everybody else, was given a functioning body at birth and had absolutely no part in it's design...Vj ~ So jackass, why can't you infer that the same (law) could not have been denied to the first humans?
Harry: It's a shame that God didn't realize at the time that HE should have conferred all of this with you...Vj ~ It is even a greater shame that He did it from the very beginning creation for all of mankind but you are too dumb a jackass to investigate it (true religion). Maybe I should color everything green, at least it will make you happy for the moment, that is until you take a graze.
Rosamond - February 05, 2000Vj ~ "Show me your friends and I will tell you who you are."
Rosa: Harryll: You said it all.
Rosa: Obviously nobody is the slightest bit interested in responding to VJ. Vj ~ Obviously meaning that you are an idiot, and him a jackass, to have responded to so many?
Rosa: Even more egregious than all his tortured attempts to create the perception of wisdom, one simple characteristic stands out: VJ is a bore.Vj ~ My, my, fools can be so easily bored with little and even too much. Their sciences have provided so much of materialism and yet it is no cure for banality. Either way, with or without fools, I am the one always drawing the benefit.
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Rebuttal from:harryll - February 07, 2000
Harry: ".....[getting back to the subject VJ, isn't he a pip.????]...
Vj ~ Whatever it is, it must be better than that of a chimp, otherwise you would have been conducting this dialogue in a zoo, instead of here.
Harry: Fortunately, most all thinking people are not so vain and stupid as to claim their thoughts to be "immutable laws"....Vj ~ How could one who knows not how to think, speak of "thinking people"? Instinctive knowledge is natural, neither does it decrease nor does it increase but yet your "vain and stupid" (illiterate) ancestors through such stupidity brought forth a civilized world. How is it possible? Are you really thinking jackass?
Harry: With VJ, we are talking about super, super, super EGO, in fact, almost maniacal....Vj ~ Blame your ancestors for inventing language, had they not we would have all been happy like chimps roaming about in nature, live and die for no purpose, all without an "EGO". How do you know that the "super, super, super EGO" is not what is called for in the upward progress by evolution? It is obvious then, that I am far ahead of you brainless (still stupor) twits.
Rosamond - February 07, 2000Vj ~ If you think that is embarrassing, what would you say if both of you were around when your ape ancestors were teaching their human offspring the science of language.
Rosa: Jared: You should have been around when VJ made his horribly embarrassing blunder about how a person knows the truth based on their "subjective" beliefs! We had a field day with that one.
Rosa: Another scientist, a Dr. Wallace, had done research similar to Darwin's twenty years before and also contributed to Darwin's work. Vj ~ Dr. Alfred Russel Wallace - co-originator of the Physical Evolution Theory wrote in "Social Environment and Moral Progress" strongly refuting the social and moral evolution theory.
"In the earliest records which have come down to us from the past, we find ample indications that accepted standard of morality and the conduct resulting from these were in no degree inferior to those which prevail to-day, though in some respects, they were different from ours. The wonderful collection of hymns known as the Vedas is a vast system of religious teachings as pure and lofty as those of the finest portion is of the Hebrew Scriptures. Its authors were fully our equals in their conception of the universe and the Deity expressed in the finest poetic language."
The Social Evolution Theory falls to the ground when as rightly asserted by Dr. Russell - one of the founders of the Physical Evolution Theory. Vedas admittedly 'the oldest book in the library of mankind contains the "essential teachings of the most advanced religious thinker and is a vast system of religious teachings which are pure and lofty." This is in fact, the best testimony to the Vedic Revelation Theory.
"In it (Veda) we find many of the essential teachings of the most advanced religious thinkers." P. 1.
"We must admit that the mind which conceived and expressed in appropriate language, such ideas as are everywhere present in those Vedic hymns, could not have been inferior to those of the best of our religious teachers and poets - to our Milton, Shakespeare and Tennyson." (Social Environment and Moral Progress By Alfred Russel Wallace P. 14)
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Rebuttal from:harryll - February 10, 2000
Harry: Hi Rosemond....The trait that VJ possesses that has always been a problem in the past is blind obsessiveness...
Vj ~ Had you even a speck of intelligence you would have conducted a sensible debate by responding to each one of my rebuttals in their proper order, instead of making irrelevant idiotic open statements. I have said before that you are a jackass and it is up to you to prove that you are not really one.
I am hoping that you would consider responding to this.
Do you believe by your 'reality of truth' that a man must be punished for his crimes? If you say yes, then what about those who managed to escape the strong arm of our fallible system of justice? How can they ever be punished if there is no system of justice above our own?
Secondly, if you say no, then don't you think that our system of justice should be abolished and all criminals set free? The latter seems fair since all criminals will be treated equally, but then again, crimes will increase since there will be no laws to deter man from committing further crimes.
Feel free to ask your lame-brain friend Rosamond and other evolutionists for their opinion based on your "reality of truth", on how all criminals, with the exception of none, can be justifiable punished.
\harryll - February 12, 2000Vj ~ Even "little to ever disagree" is still foolish among fools. Wise men think alike and there are no disagreements, not even a little.
Harry: Hello VJ....I have found very little to ever disagree with in any of Rosamondís comments on any board and the last statement is no exception in spite of being strong-worded....
Harry: How have you decided that criminal justice is one of our past disagreements, Vj ~ Evolution opposes justice for all, it automatically becomes a disagreement, even if it was not mentioned before.
Harry: I don't ever remember that subject even being brought up.... Vj ~ Since you bear no memory of any of your monkey ancestors, what difference should it make?
Harry: But it is interesting because your words say a lot about your frame of mind...Vj ~ It is even worst for your frame a mind since you are yet to make a rational response.
Harry: I would rather error on the side of innocent and let a guilty person go free than risk condemning and innocent one...Vj ~ Well, if our system of justice should be abolished for the same reason, what then would protect the innocent from the guilty? Why would it matter to you for taking the "risk" of condemning an innocent man, if there is no punishment or reward?
Harry: For all those who believe that God's punishment is unavoidable in the hereafter, I can't understand any of them having a different opinion...Vj ~ That would depend on the understanding of a jackass and since he has none (stupor), there is really nothing to understand. Why look to afterlife for punishment and rewards, when we are witnessing it everyday and everywhere in our daily lives?
Harry: Punishment seems a high priority for you, perhaps you would really want to watch...Vj ~ Why should it not be "a high priority" when there is so much of pain and misery around which no one wants?
Harry: Most of the rest of us (dare I say, normal), people would rather have nothing to do with judging or punishing anyone...Vj ~ It is only a fool ('normal') who would want to endure the agony of pain, not wanting to know how it can be prevented.
Harry: I think that it is fair to say that no justice system has ever existed that had a 100% perfect NO miscarriage of justice...Vj ~ Then the the fault lies with your monkey ancestors for such a miscarriage of justice. In other words, only an idiot would come to such a conclusion without investigating every possible source available.
Harry: Perfection is a goal but there are never guarantees that it is obtainable...Vj ~ And far less a guarantee, especially for an idiot.
Harry: You, on the other hand IMPLY that somehow you can assure perfection or 100%, (no matter what subject), is possible through your religious beliefs...Vj ~ If only you weren't a coward and a bigot, you would have at least had the courage to investigate it.
Harry: The reality of life is that there are always that small group of unfortunates that are born with disorders resulting in emotional and often criminal problems in later life.... Vj ~ Then your reality of life (or truth) is unjust, since there are punishments for some and rewards for others, none knowing why?
Harry: No laws, those of Man, or those of God, are ever going to mean anything to these unfortunates who have little control over what they do...Vj ~ Very true, and they will continue to be that way in the absence of the correct knowledge. Like you, they born, cry, laugh, work, eat, shit, sleep and die, all for no purpose whatever.
Harry: You should understand that we only have enough policemen to handle and expected percent of criminal behavior...Vj ~ Whose fault is that? When they are taught all is for naught or forgiven, what will deter man from such criminal behaviors?
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Rebuttal from: Rosamond- February 13, 2000
Rosa: Hello, Harry. In Logic, there are a variety of descriptions of erroneous arguments.
Vj ~ It is even worst when the source knowledge is from some chimp or lower creature in the past.
Rosa: One is called "Argument by False Authority". This is one VJ likes to employ. Vj ~ What could be more false than the evolutionist theory of an illiterate human being inventing something as intricate and complex as language?
Rosa: VJ accuses, and then shifts the burden of proof onto the accused.Vj ~ Well, until now you cannot prove how man acquired knowledge without a teacher. It is an accusation, but not a false one.
Rosa: I suppose he'd have our hands chopped off for our insolence if he wielded the level of authority he wishes he had. Vj ~ We did better than that we "chopped off" complete communication of 30 children to the outside world and at the age of 12 they knew no language and could not have even communicated with each other. This shows that no human could acquire knowledge without being taught.
Rosa: Which he does not. Vj ~ On the contrary, my authority (the Vedas) is in harmony with reasoning and science and it conforms with natural laws. What is yours?
Rosa: He is as insignificant as a housefly.Vj ~ Not if you really new that the fly bears a previously (past) human soul. Could be the punishment deserving of an evolutionist for propagating a false theory. You can either accept it as the truth now by further investigation or take the risk of becoming an "insignificant" fly later.
harryll - February 13, 2000Vj ~ It is obvious that being a jackass your 'reason or truth' can never improve by complaining to another jackass. Similarly, one prehistoric human void of "reason and truth" could not have taught another how to reason much less truth. Besides, you idiots have yet to find "truth", much less to brag about it.
Harry: Hello Rosamond....VJ's form of that argument is simply "religion at all costs" regardless of reason or truth....
Harry: You can see the results of his thinking in the lives of those in nations like Afghanistan where all authority is in the hands of self- proclaimed "clerics"...Vj ~ It is the same with both. the "self-proclaimed" evolutionists, and the other being false religions, are void of true knowledge.
Harry: Under the pretense of divine moral justice, (a carbon copy of VJ's rambling), all of their individual rights were taken away leaving them in unimaginable conditions, rivaling the worse of the Dark Ages of the past....Vj ~ Maybe you are too stupid not to notice that our present age is as dark as the past because of the trend of rampant false scientific and religious theories. And what is so bright of your science when it is responsible for the mutilation and murder of millions including Nagasaki and Hiroshima? As you have seen the failure of religion through atrocities, shouldn't it be the same for science also?
Harry: Their desperation can seen in the recent airplane "hijacking" incident recently which was in reality a mass attempt at escaping that madness called Afghanistan...Vj ~ Even the Chimps in Africa are seeking higher and safer grounds from their human offspring, not to mention the billions of innocent creatures that are maimed for scientific experiments or slaughtered to appease the human appetite. As an evolutionist you, seem to have no compunction for the 'progenitors' of the human race, what a travesty!
Harry: VJ could never admit that he is very much the same as these "clerics"...Vj ~ Whenever I become a threat to any life I will admit it, but right now, since there is no compassion for the innocent creatures you eat you are as guilty as they are.
Harry: He lives in an world and age where information is easily obtained but uses NONE of it...Vj ~ Why is it necessary to learn from other sources, if a human can simply teach himself/herself? You are a typical example of such ignorance which prevents you from examining all sources until truth is ascertained. The truth of which apple among a dozen is the sweetest cannot be ascertained until you have tasted them all.
Harry: VJ is the abusive enemy of enlightenment by his own foolish self, preferring instead an "imagined reality" of life centuries past where "guru's" ruled with absolute authority...Vj ~ My authority conforms with the immutable laws of nature, where the first humans were not only the wisest but were in the majority and has now decline to your state of ignorance where fools now make up the majority. I don't know if this is perfectly clear for a jackass's understanding but I will put down for the benefit of the others who might be interested - the Vedic religion maintains that truth was complementary and not exclusive and contradictory and as such it commands allegiance to all ages.
Harry: If I had my way, VJ would be sent to Afghanistan where he belongs...Vj ~ What good would that do, if you still remain the jackass you are? Seek the way to true knowledge, and then you won't have to send anyone anywhere, but yourself to a higher realm of wisdom
Harry: With every word he demonstrates why he doesn't deserve to walk among free men in a free society....Vj ~ Man can only be freed by the truth of Vedic wisdom, the source of all knowledge. If there is anyone that is free among men and a free society it is me, not you. Freedom must not only be an expression, but a daily experience.
Harry: It is very fortunate for VJ that he lives in a world much more tolerant than the one he would wish for all of the rest of humanity.........Vj ~ The world is not tolerant my friend, they are asleep, tolerating one another in ignorance as you are. The proof of that is when truth is propagated the "tolerant" becomes intolerant. I am fortunate because I simply put into practice the truth I preach. You or no one else who practices tolerance will never be able to experience my world of peace and harmony until you have made your own effort to seek the path I have shown here. But it would be a 'miracle' if a jackass can do it.
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Rebuttal from: B-Edmonds - February 13, 2000
B: Hello Rosamond and HarryII -----Boy,this VJ fellow is amazing!
Vj ~ You can magine what is yet to come, you have only now begun this journey with me.
B: Any attempt to get a fact or idea into his head is like trying to pass a feather through a cannonball.Vj ~ Especially if the "fact or idea" has it origin in your ape ancestors.
B: I've met people similar to Vj who would argue with road signs. Vj ~ Then you should have no problem here, since you been in the company of wise before and "road signs" to guide you.
B: I wonder what Vj does for a living. Vj ~ No need to wonder anymore, I am retired. I can't complain, it is the fruits of righteousness which began at age 51.
B: I would imagine holding one of those stop signs you see at road consruction sites.Vj ~ Not much of an imagination but boy, you have been around, you must be the "Johnny on the spot" that I have so often used.
B: There of course would be no job security,he could be replaced by a bucket of sand.Vj ~ Consider yourself lucky to be used at all times, since there would always be construction and other workers, besides sign-holders like me, to shit on you.
B: Probebly best to give him a nice lolly and send him on his way.Vj ~ Maybe you haven't noticed yet, but it is the fools who are usually being sent away, on their own I might add and with their own "lolly". Are you coming back after this?
B-Edmonds - February 14, 2000Vj ~ Then I suggest you do some walking and give your ass a rest. Worst yet, if your brains are there, it could be the reason why they are not functioning.
B: VJ----I have a pair of shoes that are almost twentyone years old,but they still fit.
B: I would like to know if you are a typical representative of your religion. Vj ~ It is best to first know what my religion is about and then determine its representative.
B: All this ranting,name calling,and beligerence is hardly becoming of an enlighted individual.Vj ~ It is the enlightened individual who knows best as a doctor knows best in diagnosing the symptom. You may want to take it serious and seek the cure, that is if it is not too late, instead of dismissing it lightly as simple "name calling". I cannot understand why a fool would come to the aid of a fool, unless the first fool is more foolish. And if you are more foolish how would you know who is an "enlighted individual"?
B: By the way, and just so you will be aware of it. Referring to a fellow human being as a "jackass" in this country is what we call FIGHTIN' WORDS. Vj ~ Then your country is dense in ignorance, since a jackass can be a perfect example of harmony. Have you or any one in "this country" ever witnessed any wars or acts of violence among jackasses or they towards humans? It is the sole reason wise men use it as a therapy to relieve fools of their ignorance.
B: You may wish to tone that part down a bit. Vj ~ Whenever I tone down, know that your ignorance is incurable.
B: Hey Rosamond!..Yeah,I was just passing through and saw your name. Thought I would stop to see what was going on.Vj ~ There are three kinds of people, those who make things happen, those who watch happen and those who wonder what happen. It is most certain, by "passing through" you do not belong to the first group.
B: I can see why you don't bother much with this dolt. He's like an angry bear in a cave. Well, see you around.Vj ~ I see you are leaving already, at least you know when not to challenge an "angry bear". On the other hand, the others will see you as coward, since they have the courage to do so.
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Hello Freud - November 01, 1999
Vj ~ And what is the source of empirical science?
It is much better than an ancient book of fables and wishful thinking.Vj ~ You maybe right, but would you know without investigating it. Unless you alike the other fools who draw conclusions through belief.
Since my position can be verified by science, while yours is rejected by science I have to conclude that my position is and always has been correct.Vj ~ Your position can only be verified by examination of all possible knowledge available, even the one that contradicts your science. But since you know nothing of mine, then you are an idiot to conclude yours to be correct.
Your failure to present anything supporting your argument other than vague assertations and insults shows that your position is weak
and wrong.Vj ~ It is only vague because of your failure to investigate further, which leaves yours vague, without you even knowing it. Maybe if you look harder, you will probably notice that the insults are for your own good.
That's why there is no debate. Until you can prevent something that disproves the established paradigm you might as well not waste anyone's time.Vj ~ Your established paradigm is a breach to natural laws since man is the product of his own reproductive element which is steady, and not once from a lower creature. If you have no knowledge of these laws, I can understand why you wouldn't want to debate.
Hello Freud - November 01, 1999Vj ~ So who taught the first human mind? It is enough to know that the human mind cannot be the source of science, otherwise the Bush Negroes of Africa or the tribesmen of the Kalahari would have been at par with you in science.
Vj ~ And what is the source of empirical science?
Just your asking that shows that you don't know squat about science. Science is a method therefore the source of empirical science is the human mind.
So all you have to do if verify such notions as gods and that the earth is flat. But all you rely on is blind faith so you are just like the fools you condemn.Vj ~ No, you are the fool to condemn without investigating and this is what is called blind or ignorance. I have investigated all faiths and even your science of evolution.
It has been verified, that's why it is empirical science. If something is found to contradict previous knowledge then the new knowledge is tested for accuracy. Then it is accepted until disproven.Vj ~ Evolution of man breaches the immutable laws of nature where it call for steady and repeatd occurrences, how could you test this for accuracy when you have no knowledge of natural laws?
: Yours are vague because you failed to show why they are true. The burden of proof is upon you, not me. If you can't support your claims then all you give is vague assertions. So just give the proof. Since you won't or can't then we can only assume that you are wrong. Vj ~ Is not birth the result of death, day and night, rain coming from the clouds, human reproducing human, animals reproducing their own, and excretion of filth from your backside all steady and repeated occurrences? How are the truth of these laws vague when you are witness to them everyday of your life?
The established paradigm fits within natural laws. Your natural laws are vague and unsupported and contradict science. Since you probably don't even know what the paradigms are or how they are reached just shows your ignorance. So I suppose you'll keep on ranting without providing any substance for your claims. Just shows how much blind faith you have.Vj ~ If you are an idiot how would you see substance in my claims? Man is from lower creature, then primate, medieval and now civilized, this shows progression upwards. How do you explain everything else are in a state of decay, while your theory of evolution is progressing upwards?
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Rebuttal from: Rosamond - February 14, 2000
Rosa: Hi, Harryll: What I find amusing is that VJ proclaims that true religions agree with science...and that his is a true religion.
Vj ~ My claim still stands, unless you can refute true religion. I am surprised that with all your boasted scientific intelligence you and your friends haven't even made one single attempt to do so. I know it would be nice for you and your friends to claim victory if I should go away, but it won't happen.
Rosa: Science does not agree with his religion. Vj ~ Maybe true, but how would an idiot, a jackass and a fool know without any investigation of its tenet.
Rosa: Therefore, according to his own rule, his religion is false.Vj ~ So far it has been your rule not mine. I have done my part to refute evolution and it still stands, but what have you and the other shameless fools done so far to refute true religion?
Rosa: He couldn't make the Vedic faiths look worse if he ate baconVj ~ Not knowing what the Vedic faith is, is the worst for any human.
Rosa: B-Edmonds Hi, there. It's been months and months since I bothered to read VJ's drivel. Vj ~ Make sense, your ancestors did no reading at all, much less having the "drivel" for it, and look at the science they 'gave' us today.
Rosa: I just drop in from time to time to hang out with friends like Harry and you. Vj ~ I hope you are doing the same for your 'inventive intellectual' ancestor friends at the zoo.
Rosa: I think the funniest thing VJ ever wrote was that he thought evolutionary theory only applied to humans.Vj ~ Why deal with the others when you haven't solved the theory applied to humans as yet? Or do I need to remind you, that my post specifically deals with the subject of human evolution?
Rosa: He never even realized that it was applicable to all living things on earth. Vj ~ When you would have come to realize that the immutable laws of nature apply to all animate and inanimate things of the universe you would know that it wouldn't matter if we discuss the creation of one or all.
Rosa: Can you imagine someone with that limited knowledge would attempt to speak with authority on the subject? Amazing.Vj ~ If by your standard my knowledge is limited, then isn't it truly amazing that you can't defend evolution, with even your knowledge, of the faith that refutes it? How is it ever possible, idiot?
harryll - February 15, 2000Vj ~ Looks like mating season is here. You jackasses were told "many times" to investigate my site. Had you done so, you would have been in a better position to debate your scientific theory or facts or whatever.
Harry: Hello Rosamond, B_Ed and VJ......VJ was asked, many times, to produce an example of his wonderful life, a nation or group of people following his religious beliefs....
Harry: If he is right then they should best examples and proof that his religion provides answers to life and science that our own society doesn't....Vj ~ If the examples (knowledge) are there and the jackass harryll is too much of a bigot to look for it, how is it possible to have answers.
Harry: VJ continually criticizes everything and everybody outside of his narrow religious beliefs as being wrong, but he can't seem to find any group of his own to show us as proof of that alleged superiority....Vj ~ And jackass, where did you find a group of apes changing to human, as proof of human evolution?
Harry: Somehow, I know that we will never see a Veda scientist discovering a new cancer treatment or landing on the Moon, although VJ claims that his is the ONLY "science".....Vj ~ You would only know what your narrow mind leads you to know, nothing else. "Prevention is better than cure." If you agree consider yourself sensible for the moment, and what follows is that the science of prevention (yoga) is far superior to the science of cure. Samadhi (self-realization) is the highest of all science, Astronomy, cosmology, Geology, natural History, Phrenology, Mathematics, Chemistry, the planets, etc. where the human soul discovers nature and the universe while embodied. So your science of cure and curiosity of landing on the moon, although its source is the Vedas and is for all, is by far inferior which points to progression as downwards conforming with natural laws.
Harry: It's funny that science, which is totally impartial to religious beliefs, doesn't have a thing done by any Veda scientist...Vj ~ Here jackass are few examples
"In July 1995, a tabletop experiment by Mr. Carl Wieman, a University of Colorado physicist, chilled atoms of gas to the lowest temperature ever achieved. The experiment created a "superatom" by using laser beams confirming a 1925 prediction by Albert Einstein, who based the idea on work by Indian physicist Satyendra Nath Bose."Even today, it is the (Sanskrit) grammar of Panini that is responsible for the fast pace of space technology, beginning with the Germans. As long as you choose to remain a senseless bigot, nothing what I say or do can change that.
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." Albert Einstein
Harry: By VJ's comments, they should dominate all of science....Vj ~ Perhaps they do, but a jackass is far removed from it. If you truly understand the most abstruse science of the Primary efficient cause of the Universe and the immutable laws of nature, you would know that they can never be the dominant forces in the last age (iron age or Kaliyug) of inferior sciences.
Harry: VJ keeps thinking that any and all human language is too complex to originate from mere mortals yet we superior animals have yet to understand the complex languages used by dolphins or whales... Vj ~ Why would you want to understand the complex languages of dolphins or whales, haven't your monkey ancestors taught you enough? This shows what a brainless twit you are, caring less to master the available complex language of Sanskrit, the source of all sciences, instead of looking for the unavailable language of whales and dolphins. It is only through the language of revelation (Sanskrit) man can better understand himself and the world he lives in, not the (instinctive) knowledge of animals .
Harry: VJ's only example of "science" is his reference and claim to know the "immutable laws" of science, suggesting of course that no one else does who is outside of his religious beliefs...Vj ~ And a good suggestion it is, since you are the perfect example of one outside lacking the knowledge of the immutable laws of nature. To be truthful, it is the true nature of my post where both evolution and false religions are in complete violation of these laws, and this makes the Vedic religion the obvious source of all truths.
Harry: Somehow you get the impression that anything that VJ wants to claim, perfectly fits and complies with his own very generic term of "immutable laws"....Vj ~ If truth must be ascertained, it is obvious that there must be some unchangeable law order which must decide the order of things. You cannot say that excretion is a changeable law, then it is possible that some other organ but the backside could have been the use of disposing waste matter. The same would apply to all laws, if they are changeable, the result can bring nothing else but disorder.
Harry: Again, where is this group of successful people VJ??.. Vj ~ Where is your group intellectual monkeys that taught you the science you know?
Harry: Point out that nation or state that examples your alleged success at being the only ones knowing real truth and real science...Vj ~ Point the nation or state of monkeys that examples your alleged success of science as being the ones the source of your knowledge.
Harry: After all of these centuries certainly that should be plenty of time to show the success and prove the point to everybody....Vj ~ After thousands of years shouldn't you also show apes evolving as humans to be steady if it were a law ever ceasing?
Harry: You really CAN'T though, can you VJ.?????...Vj ~ To tell you the truth, I can Harry, but that is not the problem - how can I convince a human with the brain of jackass to understand.
Harry: he difference between what you want, and what IS, is called reality...Vj ~ "What is" is what we all know given our present status, what we "want" (desire) is happiness, and the "reality" of perpetual happiness lies in the practice of the correct knowledge (through Yoga).
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Rebuttal from: Rosamond - February 15, 2000
Rosa: B-Edmonds: Did you hear something? Like a fly buzzing?
Vj ~ Probably, like your lower-creature ansestors, the buzzing fly is trying to teach you some more science.
Rosa: I thought I did, but now I can't tell... just a faint, slightly unpleasant sound, but it's fading now...Vj ~ Rather smart fly, probably already figure you out to be a fool. Perhaps like B-Edmonds you might want to do some soul searching also .
"Hello VJ, I'm going to give your impressive website a good look. I am going to be visiting India in two to three months, based from the business district of New Delhi. Your philosophical origins deserve some of my attention." B-Edmonds
harryll - February 26, 2000Vj ~ To be acquainted with my religion one must first begin to reason so that theories and facts must conform with the immutable laws of nature. My religion, unlike any other religion, stresses on a faith in harmony with reasoning and science and if you have failed to understand my position, it is not my faith the fault, but your own failure to investigate it.
Harry: You, as do so many others, attempt to do the same by insisting that the only way one can understand your position is by becoming, (as you have), totally emeshed in your religion and beliefs...
Harry: If your demand is legitimate, why isn't everyone elseís who suggest that you become better informed about "science" in general before making rash and senseless judgments concerning science and evolution.?????..Vj ~ How would you or everyone else know that I am not better informed in science, if you idiots failed to investigate my source. As I said many times before how can any intelligent person defend evolution if you have no knowledge of the faith that contradicts it.
Harry: Also please don't forget that, just because you label something "immutable", doesn't make it so...Vj ~Then, like any sensible person would do, why don't you refute my "immutable" laws, if my "label" is incorrect? This is all I ask, nothing more.
Harry: That practice is your one and only "crutch" that you have to support your ridiculous beliefs concerning nature and Mankind....
Vj ~ This is not what I call sensible, when you cannot point one single contradictions to this supposedly "ridiculous beliefs". You and the others have constantly condemned it in general terms as if it is based on the same irrational principles like the others.
Harry: Nothing in nature or in life supports any of your concepts in spite of your attempts to legitimize those hair-brain views by using the term "immutable".....Vj ~Maybe true, but how can you contradict it, when you have failed to make known the source of your knowledge. To me you are still an incarnated brainless jackass, braying endlessly to no avail.
Rosamond - February 26, 2000Vj ~ The achievements of a scientist is measured by what he/she has acquired or taught. In other words, these achievements could not have had its origin in some illiterate prehistoric human void of all languages. If you can explain how an illiterate and intelligent person can bring about the same results, I will change.
Rosa: Harryll: I do agree. But he may yet change. Life has a funny way of giving a person the opportunity to view all sides of all issues at one time or another, so you never know.
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Rebuttal from:harryll - March 07, 2000Harry: Hello Rosemond.....What is sad is that religion has always been the perfect tool for those seeking to elevate their own feelings of self importance
Vj ~ And aren't evolutionists seeking the same "self importance" by propagating evolution of man from lower creature, even though it breaches the immutable laws on several fronts.
Harry: while silmultaniously, and self rightiouslyly, justifying their hatred of others....Vj ~ I am happy for you, since a jackass bares no hate, but what amazes me is that he calls himself a scientist to 'prove' that he evolved from some ape and even though man had to be specially taught.
Harry: Poor VJ cannot put two sentences together without resorting to his "crutch" of affiliation and knowledge of "immutable laws"....Vj ~ And yet with all your scientific knowledge, you cannot grasp the order these laws bring about.
Harry: What is sad is that this is just the same old religious based justification used throughout history for denying knowledge and living in the darkness of ignorance....Vj ~ What is even sadder is that such idiots as evolutionists cannot brave the rationalism of this true faith to even investigate it, before denouncing it. This much you must know, that ignorance is the failure to investigate all possible sources, and all those of false dogmas and athieists must do their part to make such an effort before acceptance or denial.
Harryll - March 08, 200Vj ~ An absolute is that which exists without a cause. Amazing how a brainless scientists and a jackass think a like, that they both don't know that even if it is an absolute, it was so from the very beginning of creation and not recently when you idiots learned how to count.
Harry: Hello Vj...Two times two equals four...That is an absolute, not something irrevocably controlled or tied to any FAITH...
Harry: It is true, whether used by humans or monkeys...Vj ~ As a matter of fact it is true only in your case, since you are as brainless as "monkeys". If the source (Vedic faith) is fully investigated as the time of learning "two times two equals four" became an absolute long before you and your monkeys.
Harry: It is true REGARDLESS of which faith your claim as your own, which political party you follow, or which planet you are on...Science is the study to know and understand these same absolutes and can only be done in a way that is totally free of any political or religious dictates...Vj ~How come you are not free to investigate any "political or religious dictates"? I do not deny what science is but when its "study to know and understand" breaches the immutable laws of nature, then it is foolish to continue to push your theories. What absolutes can be bragged about, when you neither have the source of science nor even matter, the material cause of the Universe? Let's say your science haven't found the answer yet, why are you so stubborn to deny my source without investigation?
Harry: Dictates cannot change them...Vj ~ Neither being stubborn like a jackass can
Harry: Likewise VJ, no one has to delve into your personal religion in order to understand or use these things as you are foolishly suggesting on these boards....Vj ~ So what makes my religion personal and your science not, jackass? My religion is only 'personal' because you are a coward to investigate it. What are you afraid of, looking small before your own kids, friends or society, whom you have bragged so much and perhaps for so many years, of your science? Those of false dogmas blatantly refuse to even look at the Vedic faith, are you also one of a static intellect? It is bad enough to let your ego destroy your own soul, but must you destroy those of your loved ones also?
Harry: Science is free for all who honestly want to understand, there are no "requirements", politically or religiously that have to be met, as you seem to want to believe...Vj ~ Nothing is free idiot! All must make the effort by time, labor and even money, to acquire the appropriate knowledge in every chosen field to elevate oneself to understand, and science and religion is no exception.
Harry: These things, being absolutes, are not tied to your's or anyone else's religion....Vj ~ How would a jackass know what is tied to it, when you know nothing of my religion?
Harry: It also doesn't matter by whom, or exactly when, they were first discovered and taught, as being a requirement before they be recognized as absolutes...Vj ~ There are two types of people the intelligent and the idiot. It is the idiot who cares less of the source of ethics and morals and science, the primary efficient cause, matter and the human soul.
Harry: I don't question your religion or right to have your own religion, but your actions on these boards are trespassing both REASON and the basic RIGHTS of others who want to honestly learn these absolutes found only in science which is absolutely impartial to "believers" or athiests...Vj ~ Truth can only be ascertained by honest inquires, and those who believe such rational discussion to be a trespass to reason, are themselves lacking in reasoning. Furthermore, what makes you think the source of all ethics, morals and science is partial to good reasoning, if you haven't yet investigate it?
Harry: Your thinking that one MUST be indoctrinated in Vedic in order to understand is total nonsense...Vj ~ It is better to be indoctrinated in the Vedic faith, than to be indoctrinated in a science that you have no source for, and one that breaches the immutable laws of nature.
Harry: Your actions in this regard are nothing but a childish threat saying, "believe you, or ELSE"...You, like all bigots past and present, fear the freedom that encompasses science and scientific thought...You need to "get a life" and escape your fantasies....Vj ~ It is a belief that is in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with natural laws. Can you say the same for your science? And lastly if your science gives you such freedom, how do you explain your unwillingness to investigate the Vedic faith? It is not that I want you to accept it, but for the simple reason that you would be in a better position to defend scientific theories this faith contradicts
Harryll - March 11, 2000Vj ~ How can "Two times two equals four" be an absolute to one who does not know how to count?
Harry: Two times two equals four...That is an absolute,
Harry: what has Vedic science done that our science has not done????..Vj ~ It has given us the source of life matter. All those (Rishis, Munis, saints, sages, etc.) who have study "VEDIC SCIENCE" have found themselves in harmony with each other. My advice is that you would have to do your own investigation, since not all scientists are not in agreement with your scientific (evolution) theories.
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Rebuttal from: Draygomb - March 10, 2000
Dray: Hello again
It just occurred to me, that if the Rishis all agree with one another and you agree with them, then maybe you're one of them. VJ
Vj ~Being a Rishi requires strenuous individual effort of study and practice of the correct knowledge. This way they think rationally and alike. It simply indicates that salvation is only possible for the wise and never a fool who asks for forgiveness or an athiest who rejects this knowledge.
Dray: So just how many Rishis are there?Vj ~ Why would it matter how many they are when they all conform to the same truth? You have to become one to know who they are, it is the only way of counting them.
Draygomb - March 11, 2000Vj ~ It is not a deal but a fact, that men are determined to be wise because of wisdom (study and practice of the correct knowledge). Let's put it this way how would a fool ever be able to determine who is wise to even begin a count?
Dray: Is this one of those deals where you have to become one, in order to know who really is one, in order that you may count the number of them?
Dray: It sounds a lot like the old you have to know god to believe in god Vj ~The old is if you really "know" God, there would have been no necessity for belief and there would have no need for so many religions or count Rishis.
Dray: but to believe in god you must know god.Vj ~ Actually, it is when you don't "know" God, there is belief (doubts) why else are there so many opposing dogmas?
Dthomas11 - March 11, 2000Vj ~Sorry!I should have warned you fools that reasoning could lead to constipation. However, be happy that the immutable law of excretion, prevents you from tasting it, except perhaps in the case of excessive stupidity.
Dt: For those having difficulty understanding VJ, I have the answer. Take two immutables and call me in the morning! DT
Draygomb - March 13, 2000Vj ~If the Rishis are in harmony with each other because they are all wise, how could one wise "point out a failure" in their logics? In fact, one wise would be in agreement rather than in disagreement with a rishi.
Dray: VJ, would one be considered wise if one could point out a failure in the logic of the Rishis?
harryll - March 18, 2000Vj ~Big deal! There are Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc., who would disagree with your evolutionist theories, but can also brag of such achievements. Punishments (for rejection of truth) and rewards (for acquiring true knowledge) are also a fact of life and so making strenuous efforts to know the truth, before the end comes, does make a lot of sense.
Harry: Hello Draygomb....I've had many successes in my careers in technology, investing and in performing music...Not a single one of them came easy, I have always had to put effort and time in each of them before gaining any rewards...
Harry: My reasons for continuing with VJ is to try to understand how anyone could accept such an obvious "shortcut" attempt in coming to an understanding of the world around them...Vj ~ Again I am humbly asking, how could it be a "shortcut" attempt in coming to an understanding" if you have no knowledge of the Vedic faith?
Harry: VJ's philosophy of life is nice and tidy, if nothing else...He has rationalized away all need to improve, learn or seek enlightenment of any kind...Vj ~The source of enlightenment begins with the correct knowledge which must be in harmony with reasoning, science and above all conforms with the immutable laws of nature. Man evolving from and acquiring knowledge from lower creature (instinctive knowledge) is not compatible to sound reasoning and it is a breach to the laws of nature on several grounds.
Harry: He doesn't understand that he himself is a victim of a reason distorting abhorrition of what his religion is really all about....Vj ~ Is this the IQ you bragged about earlier? How can you condemn or praise something when you have no knowledge of it? A high IQ may mean you are brilliant over others, but not necessarily wise.
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Rebuttal from: Rosamond - March 14, 2000
Rosa: I have been to India, and the Indian public seem to be very receptive to and appreciative of what they call the "great gifts of the West". Concepts such as hygiene, immunization, x-rays, TB testing, etc.
Vj ~So did Einstein and Mark Twain :
"We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." Albert Einstein So when will you idiots come of age and pay homage also to the cradle of all civilization?
"India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace; human speech, the mother of history, grandmother of legend, and great grand mother of tradition. Our most valuable and most instructive materials in the history of man are treasured up in India only." Mark Twain.
Rosamond- March 15, 2000Vj ~True to your theory of man evolving from a lower creature, you haven't lost your instinctive nature, perhaps if your tail is still intact, it could help rid the menace (mosquiteo).
Rosa:Hi, Harry. There it goes again... that annoying ringing in my ears. A faint buzzing sound. Like a mosquito. Yeah. Exactly like a blood-sucking, infectious, irritatating mosquito. Do you ever hear it in this vicinity?
Rosamond, - March 18, 2000Vj ~ Here is another one for your "fond memories" - sin is associated with God, if there is no God it is obvious there is no sin - so what is preventing you Rosa, from having sex with your father or brother?
Rosa:One of my fond memories of VJ was when, after lengthy posts about evolution he came back with "I thought scientist though evolution only happened with apes turning into men". Whoops
Draygomb - March 18, 2000Vj ~ I guess it will be the closest you will ever come to making a distinction, not knowing who is wise.
Dray:Hello Rosamond - VJ is rather different isn't he?
Dray:I almost had him once before by asking him what the difference was between his Rishis and any other group of wise that had internal agreement, but he refused to accept the possibility that any other group of people could agree to anything.Vj ~ How could I when I don't know what your interpretation for "any other group of wise" based on? When I spoke of the Rishis' wisdom, I gave the source of their knowledge, it is a necessary requirement to determine who is wise.
Dray:How does a Fool tell the difference between the writings of a Wiseman and the writings of a Fool? Vj ~ If a 'fool' can tell the difference, literally speaking he is no fool, since it would require wisdom to do so.
Dray:Doesn't one need wisdom to recognize wisdom?Vj ~ Therefore, a fool can never recognize wisdom.
Dray:I still have a thriving Logic Practice.Vj ~ If it is not harmony with the correct knowledge it can hardly be called any "logic practice".
∑Rosamond - March 19, 2000Vj ~ At the very least, even though it took a mosquito to do it, something has indeed found you attractive.
Vj ~ Here is another one for your "fond memories" - sin is associated with God, if there is no God it is obvious there is no sin - so what is preventing you Rosa, from having sex with your father or brother - an ugly face?
Rosa:I hear this annoying whining. Like a mosquito. Do you ever hear it? It's insignificant, yet somehow negative and irritating.
harryll - March 25, 2000Vj ~ The statement and question are logical ones and are not meant to explain one's sexual interest or mood, but one's moral conviction. The action of incest is an immoral one whether one is indoctrinated or not, but yet you cannot rationally explain why it is forbidden among humans and not among animals, your early ancestors?
"..sin is associated with God, if there is no God it is obvious there is no sin - so what is preventing you Rosa, from having sex with your father.."
Harry:VJ assumes for example, that Rosamond would be interested in sex between family members unless she was previously indoctrinated by religion to think otherwise...
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Rebuttal from: chaddieboy- March 25, 2000
Chad:Vijai Singh I'm sorry...... I do not agree.
Vj ~ I too am sorry for you, the evolutionists and more for those who believe in false dogmas.
Chad:I'm neither creationist nor evolutionist.... so what am I? Vj ~ Look on the bright side! You are not completely lost as the other idiots on this board.
Chad:I do believe in a "Higher Power" but I also believe this power intended for the creatures on earth to adapt to the surroundings. Vj ~ I have no disagreement with this, different conditions bring on different actions.
Chad:I do not believe, however, that we, humans, came from monkeys..... Vj ~ Saying it is one thing which most can do, but proving it is another most can't do.
Chad:There are too many questions left from that idea, well atleast for me. Vj ~ Indeed a compelling reason why one must never give up on the search for the truth.
Chad:Whatever anyone believes is their right. PeaceVj ~ What ever one believes is their right, but it is wrong to continue to believe without further investigations of all available sources. In other words, truth is not believing, it is knowing.
Rosamond - March 25, 2000Vj ~ To begin with, one who is ignorant of the origin of matter cannot even begin to give the origin of life never mind the origin of species. You can dismiss my statement as you usually do, but it makes perfect sense. Try explaining the origin of a car without the origin of its material cause.
Rosa:...Now............................ ORIGIN OF A SPECIES - By Charles Darwin
ZipoBibrok - March 25, 2000Vj ~ The Christians are also saying how far they have come since Jesus - but truth and falsehood, - how are they so determined to know who is right and who is wrong?
Zipo:It's amazing how far we've come since Darwin, and yet on the whole, he was right a lot more often than he was wrong. The Scientific Method in action, I presume.
Zipo:While animals usually don't have a law code, certain things just don't happenVj ~ It is done through instinctive knowledge which neither decrease nor increase. It is natural. Hence it is wrong to hold that instinctive knowledge is all-sufficient and the source of acquired knowledge. So who taught the first humans?
Zipo:This is especially true for mammals, and as such most (including us) have instinctual inhibitions against it. Vj ~ Not true, it is not "instinctual inhibitions against it" for humans, but a moral upbringing that prevents it.
Zipo:Incest is one, as Natural Selection tends to favor healthy offspring, while incest tends to produce anything but. Vj ~ This would mean that many humans were evolved at one time rather than one man and and one woman to reproduce the human race.
Zipo:This is, presumably, to keep them from impregnating their sisters. Vj ~ Could it not be that your whole view of evolution of man from a lower creature is a presumption also?
Zipo:The Ancient Egyptian Royal Family, however, comes to mind as an example of the opposite.Vj ~ Not only it is the opposite but it contradicts your earlier statement of human "instinctual inhibitions against it".
Zipo:Who's more intelligent now.Vj ~ You tell me.
ZipoBibrok - March 25, 2000Vj ~ It is obvious that something can never come out of nothing and out of nothing something, so what is the origin of "photon plasma"? Then again since Darwin didn't know of this, by what authority is his "origin of species" can be verified?
Zipo:I think this is my department: In 1963, Drs. Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discovered a background radiation of 2.7 degrees Kelvin (-455 degrees Fahrenheit). What it means: The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation comes from a photon plasma that filled the early Universe.
Zipo:The radiation itself, comes from the trailing edge of the plasma as it dissipated, when the Universe was an infant of 300,000 years. Vj ~ If the universe was only an infant at 300,000 years when the "plasma' came into being, then what was the material cause of the "infant universe"?
Zipo:How we know they didn't fake it: The radiation was discovered completely through accident.Vj ~ Nothing new, the whole of creation is deemed one big accident for evolutionists.
Zipo:How we know that it has been verified: Along with Pyotr Kapitsa (for an unrelated discovery on extreme cold), Penzias and Wilson received the 1978 Nobel Prize for physics, for their work.Vj ~ If the Nobel prize is the verification needed, then those awarding it must be more intelligent or are examples of higher achievements than Penzias and Wilson. How else would they know what to verify?
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Rebuttal from:ZipoBibrok - March 25, 2000
Zipo:If you insist: For one thing, how do think incest ended up being culturally forbidden in the first place, it started as an instinctive response.
Vj ~ If it did, then it is a breach to the immutable laws of nature which dictates that progression is downwards and not upwards.
Zipo:Further, the first "man" and "woman" were produced by a tribe of Homo erecti, and then went on to have offspring of their own, upon whom evolution continued to work its magic. Vj ~ Christians also have the same belief in magic, why are you not one?
Zipo:As for my "presumption", I don't like to use definitive language while referring to unfinished studies, its unprofesional. Vj ~ Is it not unprofessional to use "magic" to put things into their right perspective instead of good reasoning?
Zipo:Furthermore, my mention of Egypt was to show you what happens when animals lose their instinctive avoidance of incest, and instead interbreed for even a few generations. Vj ~ What is deemed immoral or wrong now, could never be moral or right at any other time.
Zipo:After what happened to the Egyptians, I'll stick to instinctive fear thank you very much.Vj ~ What is there to fear from the instinct if there is no cause for censuring? If you fear the result (physical or mental infirmities) then why not use a condom?
Zipo:Most scientists agree that the universe began some 12 to 20 billion years ago in what has come to be known as the Big Bang Vj ~ Why not all scientists? When there is truth, there is harmony among all those who propagate it and since there are disagreements among your scientists, it means that what you hold to be true now is subjected to changes in the future, as it has been the case in the past.
Zipo:Anyways, cosmologists believe that all forms of matter and energy, as well as space and time itself, were formed at this instant.Vj ~ Christians also "believe", so what makes your cosmologists any different? How can "all forms of matter and energy" (something) came into being from nothing? Had you an ounce of sense you would know that there is absolutely no reasoning in magic or miracles.
ZipoBibrok - March 25, 2000Vj ~ I think you are disappointment to your own intelligence.
Zipo:Vijai, you disappoint me.
Zipo:Instead of attacking my argument with your cut-and-paste "method", you chose instead to pick apart a word that I OBVIOUSLY used metaphorically. Vj ~ My "cut-and-paste" method is appropriate to an intelligent discussion that you do not miss on my rational rebuttals to ascertain truth. They are not attacks, but logical responses which perhaps you can't deal with.
Zipo:I shouldn't even bother to have an intelligent discussion with you, Vj ~ I do not call your method intelligent, since you have been ignoring the most important details while posting a general reply based on something else.
Zipo:Furthermore, if you knew anything about science, you'd understand that it is a rapidly evolving discipline, Vj ~ Not when it is in violation to the immutable laws of nature and pure logics.
Zipo:and as for the future knowing different, well that's exactly the point.Vj ~ Exactly what point? Why is science working its way for the answers about all creation when it is of no use to the human race? If there is a benefit, why is it only for those in the future?
ZipoBibrok - March 28, 2000Vj ~ That is because you idiots are still digging and probably would have to dig 20 times (4,000,000 divided by 200,000) as deep where it all began. Why worry, at some time in the future they will find the truth, but what good will that be to you?
Zipo:Then why is it that the earliest fossils of modern humans were found in southern Africa, and have been dated at 200,000 years old.
Zipo:If your theory were correct, they would have been found with cell-phones, instead of the stone knives that WERE found near their graves!Vj ~ The fact that "out of nothing, nothing can come" is by far better reasoning than if they did find a cell phone. The wise men of yore had no need for cell phones - who would they want to contact when they had all the answers?
ZipoBibrok - March 29, 2000Vj ~ All things finite are subjected to decay from their highest or best or purest state, this includes universal piousness and wisdom. Progression is always downward. It is a law unchangeable. If there is a golden age to come in this creation, then you can expect an old man to become a youth of purity and innocence again. Similarly, the theory of evolution that speaks of progress as upwards is a breach to the same law. The truth of the far distant past does not lie in the ground, but in reasoning with the correct knowledge
Check out the Ancient Harrapa civilization.
Zipo:As for the golden age hypothesis, it lies dead, and broken at the feet of the current renaissance...There was no past ancient golden age, say believers in the Look Forward vision. But there is a notion going around that we just might be able to BUILD one, for tomorrow's children."
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Rebuttal from: ZipoBibrok - March 29, 2000
Zipo:For one thing, Vijai, I find your use of the term "Correct Knowledge" to be far too close to the book burning mentality of far too many regimes.
Vj ~ And even worst, I also find you to be one who draw conclusions of my faith without thoroughly investigating it.
Zipo:If I may again quote from Dr. Brin, "Cultural Relativism, a myth springing up at the opposite end of the political spectrum from Creationism, also proclaims not only that all ideas have equal value, but that no worldview or culture has any better inkling what is going on than any other. Vj ~ And how could Dr. Brin come to such a conclusion when he too did not investigate the Vedic culture?
Zipo:That there is no such thing as good or bad, right or wrong . . . only an amorphous sea of relativity, with every concept mutably exchangeable. Vj ~ So why don't you have sex with your mother since it is neither "right or wrong" but only a "concept mutable exchangeable"?
Zipo:The only thing valid is individual aesthetics. Vj ~ It is the cause of a static intellect. Man has become dull and lazy, fancying all the wonders of "aesthetics" from art to music, etc. rather than to be inquisitive to improve his reasoning power. True to a decadent civilization this is last age (iron age), the age of aesthetic, before that (bronze age) it was the ritualistic, further (silver) it was philosophical and the beginning (golden age) was pure wisdom.
Zipo:Human thought thrives on competition among ideas. Vj ~ Then what competition is there for you, when you are yet to investigate my source of ideas.
Zipo:Meanwhile, others graduate to become MODELS OF THE WORLD. Vj ~ The only true model this world is one whose views are in harmony with reasoning, science and in conformity with the immutable laws of nature.
Zipo:Anyone can come up with a metaphor or notion, but a model of the world offers consistent explanations for what people see going on around them. Vj ~ Perception is not the only means of ascertaining truth; it is the invisible evidences (subjective) that ascertains truth.
Zipo:More important, a valid model goes on to make testable predictions. Vj ~ It is not only by knowledge alone that "testable predictions" are made but by practice of the knowledge. A layman would have no clue to any scientific theories, until he himself gets involved in such pursuit.
Zipo:Most first-rate scientific papers end with a statement saying, in effect: "If this wonderful theory of mine is true, so-and-so will be discovered in this-and-such experiment.Vj ~ Similarly, I am saying also that should you investigate and practice this knowledge, you could also make your own discovery.
Zipo:On the other hand, my theory will be disproved if trials X or Y show contrary results. Vj ~ On the other hand, if the correct knowledge is put into practice it will lead to nothing contrary and therefore nothing to be disaproved.
Zipo:It is also how honest men and women live their lives. Vj ~ If there is dishonesty, it lies with those who have refused to investigate my source.
Zipo:If you believe in something, then by all means try to prove it, even convince others. Vj ~ To prove or disprove depends on the integrity of the one who wants to know and who wants to know will be prudent in their inquires of all sources available.
Zipo:Buy always leave room for the possibility that someone else may prove you wrong." Vj ~ To begin with, how will it be possible for you to prove me wrong when you know nothing of my faith?
Zipo:So, Vijai, it is up to you: give us a way to test your hypothesis that man is on a six million year downward plunge.Vj ~ I have already done so , the immutable law of nature dictates that all things finite must decay. It is one way from new, pure, perfect, birth, etc to old, impure, imperfect, death, etc. If there is anything finite or created that you know works in the reverse, then you are the one who need to be tested.
Rosamond: - April 02, 2000Vj ~ If "conscience and guilt are rooted in social responsibility" why do we need laws to deter us from lawlessness? And since early humans had no laws, no language, etc. and survived because of that "rooted sense of social responsibility", how come laws are now essential inspite of a modern age with language, science and even religion, for our survival? Are we to believe that humans of this 'civilized' age are inferior to that of your pre-historic ancestors when it comes to "social responsibilities" promoted by "guilt and conscience"?
Rosa:Conscience and guilt are rooted in a sense of social responsibility which are essential to man's survival.
P.S.Vj ~ Happiness is everyone's desire and only the truth can fulfill that desire. While it is commendable to help the static intellect of those caged in false dogmas, it would be of greater good to research every source available that genuine reason may take hold even if it is to ascertain the path you have taken is truly the right path
Rosa:Rosamond: ...but fortunately for you mortal men, I am dedicated to using my powers only for good...
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Rebuttal from: harryll - April 02, 2000
Harry:That would be hard to take...Nobody should have that much in the way of genetic advantage....
Vj ~ Why should it be "hard to take" when you are most likely the epitome of ugliness and ignorance? As always you were asked a specific question but have again failed to give a direct answer.
harryll - April 03, 2000Vj ~ You should too, it is the source of your intelligence, jackass!
Harry:Hello VJ...You are fond of words like "inferiority"...
Harry:Your whole purpose for being here is judgmental, with your personal, religiously justified ideas being presented as the ultimate truths....Vj ~ I have certainly done my part to present it, but have you done your part by investigating it?
Harry:Early man may have been "inferior" to modern man, but collectively they knew that it was possible to improve and learn...Vj ~ Here is where evolutionists lack simple common sense. We of a civilized age rely on the method of teaching or educational institution to acquire knowledge, while those in the past and inferior to us made progress without it.
Harry:They improved themselves and their lots in life, because to do otherwise would lead to extinction...Vj ~ A lawless society can never survive extinction, and since man has come this far it simple means that they were civilized from the very beginning and then fallen as the natives of the Americas were when first discovered by the Spaniards.
Harry:Just as a child must gradually learn (improve), our ancestors faced the same challenge in their daily lives...Vj ~ A child can only learn from what the parents were taught and since these parents were children at one time, who taught them and their parents? Illiteracy can never be the source of knowledge. If it is, then why aren't the tribes men of Kalahari yet developed to our standard?
Harry:Gradual, hard fought changes came over the many generations....These changes were physical as well as mental....Vj ~ You are an idiot, how could they have survived when they had no knowledge of medicine and law of society? It is impossible for the human intellect to grow without being taught in this age, how then could it be possible at any other time?
Harry:That's what evolution is all about....Vj ~ No evolution is about you having a jackass mentality and if you do not change it may evolve into the action of kicking.
Harry:Your "theory" of how God works says that we were created in a flash with no evolutionary predecessors....Now that we know that that is ridiculous, what you say is pure babble....Vj ~ It is "pure babble" to any idiot who wants to believe that something can come out of nothing. But to us for everything that is made there is a Maker and the material cause.
harryll - April 04, 2000Vj ~ And don't you realized that if the interactions are only with apes, Gorillas, etc. that is all the child will learn on its own.
Harry:VJ...VJ...VJ....Don't you realize that most of what a child learns he must do on his own and through his own interactions with others.????...
Harry:Parents contribute much in the way of guidance but guidance is only PART of what a child must learn...Vj ~ What possible guidance can come from parents (pre-historic) that got their learning from apes, gorillas, etc.?
Harry:Your "GURU" obsession doesn't seem to let you understand any of this....Vj ~ My Guru was a human and so was his guru before him and as we get to the beginning an All-wise Super natural Being gave us instructions, but what imbecile would rather have apes as his guru?
Harry:Another obvious point is that most of what we learn does not come directly from a classroom or a teachers words...Vj ~ How is it ever possible to learn the "most" without first being taught a little? Children that go to school have a chance to do better in learning than children who never attend school at all. Does this make any sense to you jackass?
Harry:Certainly formalized classrooms weren't a part of prehistoric Mankindís experience.....Vj ~ Since there were neither doctors nor lawyers, etc. it is rational to infer that man were intelligent and pure in thoughts - free from diseases and crimes, etc. to begin with, rather than in a state of total lawlessness due to illiteracy.
Harry:What early man had to know was centered on survival, hunting and food gathering and all of that can be learned even WITHOUT the use of a language of any kind, it's called learning by example...
Vj ~ Even today in spite of the high learning man would become lawless in the absence of the law. Should NYPD go on strike on the night the city experiences a black out, what would happen? Without language (learning) there is illiteracy, illiteracy leads to ignorance and ignorance leads to demise - such a state can never lead to human progress.
Harry:None of this common sense logic seems to penetrate you GURU obsession which contorts and distorts everything that you think....You are truly LOST....Vj ~ Haven't you ever wonder that if there is no purpose being a human why bother to evolve? All I can understand from your theory is that humans evolve only to bring about the extinction of their ancestors. It simply means that the correct knowledge is yet to be rediscovered by the masses. It would help if you can bring yourself to do more inquires outside of your own little well.
"Just as color cannot be perceived by ears, nor sound by eyes; in like manner, the Eternal Supreme Spirit is not perceptible to the senses. He can only be seen by a pure soul through the purity of heart, acquisition of knowledge and the practice of yoga. Just as one cannot reap the advantages of knowledge without acquiring it, likewise the Supreme Spirit cannot be seen without the practice of yoga and gaining the highest knowledge." The Light of TruthTranslation