Let me know what time works for you, the only clause is, I can't write on Shabbat, other than that, I'm free for dialogue in a respectful manner. If I am indirectly offensive in any way or form, please call me out as my intention is not to show off drama here, but have a peaceful and polite conversation.

Whenever you have a chance, and once I publish the blog (I'll notify you), you can check it out online. Its main purpose is to defend the Talmud, one of Judaism's sacred books, against the false accusations of anti-Semites, as well as evaluate the truth when it comes to the Christian and Jewish interpretation of Scripture and debunking Holocaust denial.

I try to write as often as I can to post new feed all the time. You'll find many articles and it will perhaps help you have a better understanding of true Judaism then past results on other threads where the person communicating appears to actually have been of Christian stock.

Thank you for your time and consideration, I hope to hear from you soon,
Shalom Aleichem (Peace be upon you),

Reply from Justin Dec 13, 2017 - 10:58AM
Currently, I'll be busy for a bit, but afterwards, I will take the time to answer your question, I won't shy away because its a good question which deserves a good response and there are many streams of ideas in Judaism, ranging from the Torah, Talmud and Zohar. I'll have to look through some of them first to get a better understanding of it because this thought honestly never entered my head, then I'll respond. Thank you again for the reply,
Vj ~ It never entered your thoughts before because you are not required to think (reason). I'm not settling for any kind of answer, only a rational one. An atheist or humanist does more of that than all those who are brainwashed by these false dogmas. Just look at the 5 tests of true religion above, they are self-explanatory. There are many religions and all can't right, so the sensible thing to do is to question it.

Assuming you follow Brahman, what was he doing before time

Moreover, one could apply those same humanist principles to your faith, does it hold up?

I'm sorry if this sounds crude, but your last response was a little snappy and you took advantage of me, and I thought I'd made it clear in the beginning of this thread that we wouldn't get offensive here, and by attacking me personally (by laying a silly claim that my faith forbids or is immune to reason) is an attack no only on a very old faith with much wisdom in it, but also on humanity and what moral characteristics stand for.

As a consequence of this, I will no longer except such attacks as this in the future, and this thread will close if you attempt to do so again. So. . . can we move on then?

Judaism has rational answers if that's what you want. Why would you suspect otherwise? Even if it did turn out to be man made, do you really think our Sages would have left the crumbs on the floor? Of course not.

So let's get down to business. You want to know what the Jewish thought is concerning what happened before creation, well, here it is. The following is from a letter I once wrote to a convert (note: we don't do this much, for it is not the Jewish way to proselytize because we believe all people have a right to the World to Come as long as they lead a decent life):

Have you ever thought about reading Isaiah 45:18-19? "For so said HaShem, the Creator of heaven, Who is G-d, Who formed the earth and made it, He established it; He did not create it for waste, He formed it to be inhabited, "I am HaShem and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a place of a land of darkness; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, Seek Me, in vain; I am HaShem, Who speaks righteousness, [and] declares things that are right."

So we have to ask ourselves a very serious question? Who is G-d? Does He exist, and if so, how can we find Him? Because as it currently stands, without a fundamental understanding of G-d and His ability to transcend time, it looks as if He's confirmed to it! But as it will soon turn out, this is not the case.

It is a common misconception for an outsider of the Jewish faith to speculate that the G-d of Israel created the universe in 6 days, 6,000 years ago, and all simply because He had nothing else to do.

(1) But this couldn't be further from the truth, in fact, such a premises is faulty and unheard of in Judaism.

For example, the ancient Greeks did not believe in a mighty G-d who was beyond nature and matter. They did not believe that creation came from absolutely nothing as Jews have been preaching for centuries.

Before G-d created everything, there was no "before." Yes, I know that sounds a little hard to grasp, but we are no more than finite beings, G-d said in Isaiah 55:8-9, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," says HaShem. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts [higher] than your thoughts."

It is interesting to note again that what you're about to witness is unheard of in Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, etc. Why? Because they never got divine revelation. You know this all too well with the lies and manipulations of Christianity. I don't have to go into it.

Lets move back in time - it is important to understand when this knowledge was first recorded.

Modern science is a baby compared to ancient Judaism.

Though religion is often depicted as clashing with evolution and knowledge of the 21st Century, Moses Maimonides (1135-1204 CE) felt differently. Being one of the most renowned Sages in Judaism, his words were recorded. This is what he wrote: "Study astronomy and physics if you desire to comprehend the relation between the world and G-d's management of it."

- From Moses Maimonides' The Guide to the Perplexed.In the Talmud (Avoth 2:19) we find the foundation: "Know what to answer the skeptic." This is because the rabbis sought to affirm G-d through scientific research. If He exists, we will find Him, we will not seek Him in vain.

So what's so important about the first Hebrew word of the Bible? "Beth" means knowledge that cannot be investigated any further - because there is no time to reference, no information to munch upon - nothing, absolutely nothing. "Beth" means that there was nothing before time, it is the very opening of time itself, and is first used in Genesis 1:1.

This view of the world, opening from nothing, was incoherent and practically mindless to the gentile nations. They could not fathom a world, a universe, without matter - without a previous existence. Imagine something without existing?

But this is what the Sages taught .. It has proven beyond a doubt, that what the Sages believed in, is true

The rabbis, specifically Rabbi Nahman (also known as Nahmanides, 1194-1270 CE) believed there was a time when time itself was absent. Anything else is purely a bad translation of the original Hebrew - throw it out immediately. The text in Genesis does not say "on the first day." No, this suggests that time was a sort of substance previous to creation. Genesis 1:1 clearly claims that there was no time prior to the creation.

Now, what's really rewarding is that both rabbis' Maimonides and Nahman inferred a stunning deduction: that before creation, space, like time, also was nonexistent. Energy and mass, matter and light - all were silent and retired even from abstract rationality.

Once again, we find that Judaism is systematically different than the multitude of finite pagan traditions where the gods were formed by matter and are bounded by it. They cannot exist before or without it. Nature is not in their authority, the sun, moon, and stars are all out of their control. The ancients worshiped rocks and mountains - the grandeur magnificence of non-human feat - but they have lost sight of their truths. These "idols" in a sense, serve G-d. He alone created them and we must turn our gaze to Him.

The pagans had some good questions. They asked: "What was before space and time?" Many a Sage in Kabbalah knew the answer. They said that at creation's inception, at the very first second, G-d, encompassing all eternity, contracted - and in doing so, expanded the universe.

What's so breathtaking is that this is the very thought which occurred to the rabbis - it is a thought implanted by the Master Programmer Himself.

Do you know why the rabbis relied on such revelation? It is told to us by R. Shimon bar Yochai in the Zohar, that Adam was taught all divine and material knowledge by G-d in Eden, but it was then lost to time - then Abraham was given the Sefer ha-Zohar (or, The Book of Splendor) where all creation was perfectly outlined, along with the Torah precepts for living a spiritual life. This too was then lost and it took generations to grasp everything, to find and scrutinize the nuanced expressions found in the Torah and other mystical books, and then make them available for the masses. Even then, we still have probably less than half of what Adam was first given at the birth of creation. So the kolel (school) of Jewish scholars studied day and night to locate what we have today - and we're lucky to have it!

Albert Einstein was approached before death and asked what he would do had he been given the chance to do it over again. His response was to study all the facets of Jewish tradition, to discover the secrets held within.

Then G-d came and initiated time, space, mass and energy: ex nihilo, from absolute nothing.

The point is, who would have guessed that an ancient religion, supposedly devised and formulated by a few old Jews in the Middle East, could have competed and accurately chronicle the history of time - and too such an uncanny similarity to what modern science (unknowingly) have found?

Look up the cultures of the surrounding civilizations around the Mediterranean region

, no one had any idea and there is no reference to anything close to what the rabbis, as we're taught in a secular society, thought up. To the Greeks, they needed a primordial circulation of events. They refused to accept the theory that everything came from nothing. They demanded a verdict against the long-held Jewish belief that time is mortal, that its maintenance was once snipped from mass and energy, that one could "observe" the present and infer that it was different in the past

All the young and inquisitive minds of past and this modern age are of the fervid impression that the principles of physics, chemistry and of other sciences, had their origination from their European ancestors and that no other race was aware of these before. It is certainly difficult to accredit these sciences to the fallen state of India; nevertheless, this is where it all began.

The fixedness of the Sun, the motion of the earth, of fixed and moving stars (the milky way), the planetary systems, of the moons, of earthquakes and hurricanes and many countless branches of sciences can be incontrovertible be proven by the many branches of Vedic philosophy. Even the discovery of the law of gravitation of which many credited Sir Isaac Newton becomes contradicted when many Vedic verses deal with the law of gravitation, thousands of years earlier.

". . .I give proper counsel to all who look into this book not to seek explanations of the hints I write concerning hidden matters of the Torrah

Without the Sages understanding of our most recent findings, Jews the world over, are left with no evidence to indicate to the existence of the G-d of Israel. But with such astonishing facts such as the ones delineated above, we can rest assured that such a G-d exists.
"I am HaShem and there is no other. I did not speak in secret, in a place of a land of darkness; I did not say to the seed of Jacob, Seek Me, in vain; I am HaShem, Who speaks righteousness, [and] declares things that are right." Let's praise Him that this is so.

Justin Dec 13, 2017 - 2:51PM 173.233.26.133 - Vj and the Vedic philosophy
1. I have an argument prepared on my blog refuting the belief that Jews believe G-d created everything in 6 days. It was merely a metaphor, if you'd like more information, contact me and I'll led you a copy.

I will now respond to your claim, but first, think about it, could I not ask the same of you? Assuming you follow Brahman, what was he doing before time? Moreover, one could apply those same humanist principles to your faith, does it hold up?

The five tests for a true religion challenge answered. First off, let's make it clear that any answer I give you will never be enough, you'll always add question six to the list, or claim I didn't answer anything properly.

However, I feel enough wit to give it a go tonight. 1. First, you claim that revelation must exist from the beginning to end.

This is clearly not possible, for the Jewish nation, revelation is on strike until the Messianic age, that's because two requirements need to be met first before it happens: all the Jews must reside in the land of Israel, 100%.

Secondly, revelation cannot happen because of our many sins,

, and since there is still sin in the world, the Messiah hasn't come yet (Jews don't believe in original sin). He must be in the Holy land for any revelation to exist. The children of Israel must meet these requirements.

Moreover, you need a thorough background in Judaism to even begin to answer this. In my faith, the Ten Commandments are a minute detail, simply part of halakhic law. If one broke any of these commandments, he or she holds the right for forgiveness. After all, aren't we all humans who make mistakes?

Thirdly, in Judaism, the Talmud says that all righteous people have a share in the World to Come, this means, unlike Christianity or Islam, you won't go to eternal hell fire just because you didn't believe. What kind of a G-d could **** billions of Chinese simply because they never heard of Him

Fourthly, as I already stated in my previous posts, the ancients knew one G-d, though they refused Him, its why HaShem flooded humanity in the first place (not the world, this is a mistake, I also have a paper on that too).

Furthermore, could we not apply the same clause to your faith? I've explained why revelation no longer exists in Judaism, but why isn't it there for the Vedic tradition?

This is clearly not a problem for Judaism. You wrote in your last post that you do have answers, if so, what are they, I'd like to know.

2. The ancient Greeks are perfect examples of this. They didn't know what caused storms, so they blamed Zeus. they didn't know how to explain the changing of the seasons, so they invented the story around Persephone and Hades. This is not the same in Judaism, as G-d is the author of all things, bad or good, in a means to test us (Isaiah 45:7).

It also appears to me that you have an ax to grind against miracles, but how do you explain away all the miracles in the Vedas?

3. You claim the first man must meet the criteria of being naturally composed. Well, how did your religion start? Did the first humans come from nowhere?

In Judaism, there were 974 generations before Adam. It doesn't matter how he was created

, or they, all of Genesis 1:1 is just a metaphor as quoted by the Rambam anyways. But evolution doesn't make perfect sense either, who was first, the female or male?

Do you see what I mean?
4. I don't understand this question, what are you trying to get out of it?

5. The Torah, Talmud and Zohar clearly state that the earth is round, rotates, 1. Of course not, the ancients didn't know the earth was round (for the most part), but of course, this argument doesn't directly disprove G-d, unless you can point to a contradiction or error in the books themselves, right?

and that the universe is 15 billion years old. I can provide more info if you want on how the rabbis computed this number.

3. The testimonies of the rabbis are also in harmony with each other, still, this doesn't prove anything. Why use this argument, its more apologetic.

4. The books you mention are of Indian origin, of course they do. Again, how does this prove anything?

I've answered all of your questions, I hope you are fair in digesting them, as well as commenting. Let me know if I missed anything.

I'd also be interested in seeing you try to refute what I wrote earlier. If the Vedas are true, then it should be easy, am I right?

Reply to Justin Dec 14, 2017 - 8:46AM173.233.26.159
Vj, Nice comment, really. What did I say about attacking me personally? Whatever, forget it. I won't back down yet, so you can just keep making these remarks only 5 years old would attempt.

(actually, there was no time before He created time).

If you felt threatened by it (as in the sense that Judaism may indeed be true), then again, what are you scared of? Why haven't you tried refuting yet?

So the only thing you can come up with it that my answer is false simply because the Jews weren't the first people in history. But when have I ever claimed this? The first Jew walked out of the experince of Mount Sinai. Before that time (the first major revelation), there were no Jews. We were simply the Hebrews, a tribe, that's it.

It's a very serious theological crime in Judaism.

Now, to move on. . . . You're right about my second point. Judaism is the world's oldest religion - and we'll just go round in circles about this, you'll bring up how the first people pryaed to Brahman because that's what you believe, I'll do the same with HaShem. . . what's the point in this? Where are we going, we sure won't make any progress here!

I purpose we try something else, something radical, something you're propably not use too so often.

Seriously? Do you expect me to be shocked by such wit? Is this Christopher Hitchens I'm dealing with here? I'm balling out in laughter right now!

But again, as it seems it'll always be, you refuse to answer my questions, instead, you go on a constant rant as long as the universe agianst my faith, and screaming out little phrases like, "your ignorant" and "you can't even make any sense of it even though" your bringing me information. How nice of you!

Judaism says the same, ONCE AGAIN, as your faith. The first humans were sinless. Adam and Eve (Chavah)? They also had access to the Torah preccepts, the divine books.

I will further study your site, but could you at least make it easy for me and send me a link or two on where I can find real answers?

Oh, and because you'll be converting soon because I guess you'll see the truth, Happy Chanukah.

By naming this thread a "hot topic" due you hope to gain more views? I just want to make everyone aware that you choose the offensive route even when I advised us not to go there. I'm still capabale of leaving it, are you?

Reply to Justin Dec 14, 2017 - 9:43AM
So this is what I find when digesting your site! To all readers, The creator of this board/page and most of the respondents therein are one in the same person: Vender Doov, Vijal Singh etc.
In addition most of the 'conversation' or exchanges on this site have been plagiaristically 'lifted' from this site: http://www.network54.com/Forum/32238/ and most of the responses are from conversations which 'Vender' has had with myself (Miguel) whilst he posted as a number of individuals (the 'Vender' persona inclusive). This can be readily verified by cutting and pasting excerpts from this site supposedly authored by Vijal Singh, Gurpeet Singha or Vender Doov, into google and bracketed by " " quotes. The results will point back to the site above. In many cases the author of the above identities conducts 'conversations' with himself attempting to give himself some measure of self-importance I assume. In most cases the individual in question has lifted part or whole posts authored by me (Miguel) from the site I provide the link to above. So don't be fooled by the individual here who has a long history of plagiarism and internet 'alter-egos'. So far he has presented himself to be a Christian, a Hindu and here; as some sort of 'new age' religionist. For the most part his posts are unoriginal, often plagiarised or lifete wholus-bolus from other boards without reference or attribution. Please do not be taken in by him.Thank you." From: http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3016436750&frmid=240&msgid=1034026&cmd=show It appears a fellow person on your site just ratted you out, at least I write original content! I won't hold it against you, I still want a lively conversation out of this.

Reply to Justin Dec 14, 2017 - 9:58AM
I also found this: "You claim to have all kinds of answers yet you get angry when someone whom you supposedly assert yourself to be so much more enlightened than (a muslim) attempts to use the Qu'ran in response to some of the acusations brought against Islam. Calling someone a ****-head and generally sounding angry with society for its "downward progression" seems quite contradictory of someone who claims to be above all major world religions, why someone with this knowledge should know exactly how to deal with someone without having to resort to petty name calling.

And all of this is on a website, which is on the internet, which this supposed down-trodden and immoral world has managed to create so you are able to propagate your message." From: http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3016436750&frmid=240&msgid=670753&cmd=show

If you resort to name calling with me again, instead of offering some real answers, I will end this thread, and no longer communicate with you again. If you someday attempt to harass me on my upcoming blog, I will again shut you off. Vj, it's time for answers, real answers. No more monkeying around.

P.S., anyone reading this, please see the above link for the full post, the author was brave enough to make a stand, I respect that.

Reply to Justin Dec 14, 2017 - 11:44AM
Vj, You wrote on this thread the following http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3016436750&frmid=240&msgid=1022489&cmd=show:" Those who continue to reject and revile the Vedas are condemned to many births of pain and misery. God has no cure for a fool and neither do I."
Judaism's G-d is far more merciful than this. Take, for example, this quote from the Talmud, "It says (citing Job 37:23), "With justice and an abundance of kindness, He [G-d] does not deal harshly."

"Righteous Gentiles have a place in the World to Come." (1)

the real G-d wouldn't create humanity only to destroy it. This is pure nonsense and has no heart in the Jewish soul.

It seems to me that everything Hinduism has to offer originally came from Abraham after all.

You also seem to be quoting from Psalm 22:8, "He who sows injustice will reap violence, and the rod of his wrath will fail."

Vj, you disappoint me. You haven't responded to anything I've put forward. Why? What are you scared of? and why haven't you yet put forward your response to your own challenge?

I don't like to think of others as being hypocrites too often, but you seem to fit the bill! I gave you my answer, I've proven time and time again that my faith is real and strong, you've done nothing but call me names.

Is this all the Vedic tradition has to offer if so, I'm am ashamed of it. Thankfully, I follow the true G-d, and this won't take away my sleep.

Exodus 20:2-3, "I am HaShem your G-d, who brought you out of Egypt, and of the land of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me." (See also Deuteronomy 5:7)

The next verse is very warm and has a very special place in the Jewish heart, it gave us hope all throughout the generations while we were persecuted, personally, my family in the 1850s,

I think you get the point. There is only one G-d, you, my friend, can do nothing to refute it.

But before I end this, maybe you can learn something about polite conversation, so here's a link to one, it concerns that of rabbi and Hare Krishna Devotee, and they have the sort of conversation I was hoping for with you.

Reply to Justin Dec 15, 2017 - 1:15PMv
Vj, I took the time off prepping for Shabbat to write to you. If rape and murder are fine with you, then ya, G-d did kill innocent people. Also please recall that the Vedas have their own flood account, in many sources, for instance, we find it in the Vedic Satapatha Brahmana, the Puranas, Bhagavata Purana, Matsya Purana and Mahabharata. But in the Vedic version, Brahman intends to flood the world for no good reason at all, he's doing it just because he can. Now, does this sound anything like a merciful god?

To comment on your last post, I'd rather have the truth on my side, as well as respect and kindness. This my friend, is what ultimately divides us, you believe in hate speech, while I believe in love. Is this the path of the Vedas, Vj?

But in Judaism, in Ethics of Our Fathers, one verse shows us how merciful the G-d of Abraham was:

I've quoted some passages from Ethics of Our Fathers, Mishnah Tractate Avot, Ch. 1 & 2 just to give an idea of the Jewish version of love, a universal truth for all humanity which appears absent in your faith, or at least the way you present it:

Vj, you should especially heed this warning the next time you think about slandering someone,

But this is my focal point: my tradition and yours are not the same. Or at least you are not a very dedicated follower of what you hold to be true, even though it is merely subjective and has no proof to back it up.