Discourses with Arya Samajees.
Part VII


Dialogue 1
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Aryasamaj on line: Anupam - Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003 Subject: Let us reflect on this great philosophy
Indra: He dares to compare himself to Swamiji!
  • Vj ~ Do you know of any one closer to swamiji?

    Anupam: Indeed very funny. Are you even a bramchari?

  • Vj ~ That would have been worst, I know of a Bramchari who studied ten years in India's (UP) gurukuls and no Arya Samajee wants anything to do with him.
    Yes, Arya Samajees today want to make the world noble but they don't want to know of their own weaknesses.
    It is conducive to good reasoning, that if an imbecile like Mr. Jha, whom no doubt is one to you people, can offend aryasamajees, in reality aryasamajees' intelligence have to be lower than that of an imbecile.

    The power of perfect reasoning is essential to know truth from untruth, and this is what brings us closer to swamiji.

    Anu: I agree with what Vj and you are saying, that we should first improve ourselves before heading out to uplift the whole world

  • Vj ~ How come you had no such agreement on began this dialogue, when I commented on the ninth principle of Arya Samaj?

    Anu:What I, and I'm sure most people object to is using derogatory language in a public fourm.

  • Vj ~ Since we are of the highest order philosophically why not learn from it instead? Meaning that we must be true to ourselves in that what we preach we must practice also. Should our upliftment or journey towards mukti be hampered by those who use "derogatory language"?

    Anu: Calling others "fools" and "lower than imbicle" is not civilised by any standard.

  • Vj ~ Had people been civilized when swamji came out, he would have had no reason at all propagate the Vedic philosophy. Yes, my friend, if this Vedic forum is not for those who are "not civilised by any stardard" who else can help them?

    Anu: If one can't control one's language thats the first place to follow the above advice to "improve yourselves before you head out to improve others".

  • Vj ~ Swamiji referred to those who reviled the Vedic religion as buffoons, rogues, more money than brains, etc., are you sure you are qualified to say that he did not improve himself before he headed out to improve others?

    Anu: To be able to survive and thrive as a public fourm we will have to adopt some posting guidlines.

  • Vj ~ It is those of false dogmas who strive on guidelines, because they oppose critical thinking. We, on the otherhand, have the truth which is above all guidlines.
    Everywhere that swamiji went he was engaged in shastrarth, there were never a pleasant moment for those who came to engage or listen, but he did not barter his soul to please any one, even those who gave him room and board.
    I ask you all to heed my message, even though crude, in a positive way, it is for the good of your own soul.

    If a man who spends 4 t 5 hours in the practice of yoga (begining at 2am) everyday and has publicly proved it by challenging those of all faiths that oppose the Vedic religion, who never visited a doctor in 20 years, who showers with cold water thrice a day (summer and winter), and who above all, have retired at 50 to enjoy the estacy of this dharma by conquering boredom, the discomforts of heat and cold, hunger and sleep, should be deemed a menace to a movement that was founded by one of the greatest Rishis of our time, then something is definitely wrong with those who called themselves aryas.

    Dialogue 2
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    Aryasamaj online - Anupam - Date: Sun Jul 27, 2003
    Subject: Re: Let us reflect on this great philosophy
    I never disagreed with this basic principle of Aryasamaj.
  • Vj ~ Isn't that what you are actually doing by leading a protest? In principle, if you were free of aggravations no one can aggravate you.

    Who is "we" above? Are you saying you are "highest order ..."?

  • Vj ~ Even if I say yes, how would you know if I am, if you are not there yourself?

    If you are standing at the gate of the bus going towards mukti, but you have a large stick, that you use on everyone who tries to get in, then YES, the journey towards mukti is hampered.

  • Vj ~ In reality it is those who use the "large stick" as the "bus" will attain mukti. Salvation is not without strenuous individual effort and if a mere stick can prevent you from attaining mukti, then you will be better off joining the Christian faith where it is a free "bus" ride with no sticks (effort).

    You are confusing two issues. Being civilised and giving each other respect, is different from being knowlegable. It is assumed that people in this fourm are civilised, they might not be all knowing.

  • Vj ~ The greatest respect that can be displayed is for the soul, pampering people assuming you and them to be civilized is certainly not the way. There is no shortages of respect and what you call civility among those who follow false dogmas, but you and I know that their lives lead to pain and misery. Where there is true knowledge, only then respect can be accountable to the civilized. A life guard sometimes must punch the victim unconscious, when he/she is a threat to them both. This is the one life time they have to seek higher birth, in other words, they are drowning and I am the life guard. It is not done out of malice, but for the good of the human soul.

    Here is a challenge to you: Please bring forth just one instance where Swamiji, personally, while delivering a sermon, told his audiance that YOU ARE "buffoons, rogues, etc.". Just one instance in his entire life. I doubt if you will find it.


    Even if Swamiji used harsh words, it doesn't mean we have to do the same.

  • Vj ~ It is indeed wrong for "we" to use harsh words, until "we" also are free of their effects. When harsh words do not affect an altruistic teacher, it simply means he/she is using it for the good of the soul and not out of prejudice.

    Ever seen an ironsmith creating something out of iron. He heats the iron, uses powerful strokes and moulds it initially, then he uses gentle strokes. If he were to use the same powerful strokes all the way or the gentle strokes from the start, he would never achieve the results he desire.

  • Vj ~ Are you sure you even understand your own analogy here? I too, like the ironsmith, am now applying the "powerful strokes" (harsh words) necessary to mould you into a true arya, when you would have achieved the state of a discriminating intellect, you would notice that I was even gentle from the very beginning. It is you, my friend, who is calling for a gentler approach while the iron is hot.

    Swamiji has done the heavy lifting for us. We now have to proceed carefully. If we use thoes powerful strokes of harsh language we will be doing dis-service to the movement.

  • Vj ~ So the Christians say also, Christ bore the burden of the heavy cross of sins for them and now they all have the free gift of salvation. Swamiji has only shown us the way my friend we have our own individual heavy lifting to do. You can only serve the movement by serving yourself first, any other way, is a "dis-service to the movement". As I said before, rise above "harsh words", Mr. Jha's book and your own ego, only then we can have a giant of a movement unaffected by antisemetic diatribes.

    Guildlines don't have to inhibit critical thinking, infact they encourage participation. If we use mean language on this fourm, many people would either not speak up or will leave the fourm. So not having guildlines will inhibit diverse participation.

  • Vj ~ The emphasis must be on you or those who call themselves aryas, and not "many people", you cannot save them unless you are first saved.

    Swamiji indeed did shastrarth but he was never abusive towards the participants.

  • Vj ~ In fact, truth is always "abusive", but only to the ignorant, it was the reason so many attempts were made on his life and finally his death. When you are offended by my truth, its a reflection of your weaknesses, is that what you are going to teach those who come to participate here? Harsh words and people like Mr. Jha are not going to just disappear, so it is justifiable to teach you to rise above them and then you can teach those who come to participate to do the same. I CALL IT PEACE OF MIND. Who wouldn't that even if begins with harsh words?

    You, sir, are not a menace, if more people follow this regiment, then the movement would continue full steam ahead and no one can stop it.

  • Vj ~ This is my point, I want us all to be leaders and not followers. We have enough of that in those who follow false dogmas. We must all be taught to become leaders (performance of the five great daily duties) to lead our families, first, then this forum, society and lastly the world.

    Please share your experiences with us. It would indeed be wonderful and many of us would be encouraged to follow the same.

  • Vj ~ I have been doing that all along, but the reason you haven't grasp anything yet is because your ego is busy telling me to do it your way. My experiences can never benefit you or anyone else if the ego chooses only to see fault in everything I say or do. If salvation is truly one's desire, then harsh words are only a minor hurdle to cross.

    Dialogue 3
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    Aryasamaj online - Anupam - Date: Mon Jul 28, 2003
    Subject: Re: Let us reflect on this great philosophy- Anupam
    Namestey Vj ji, We can endlessly argue point by point forever, but I think that would be a waste.
  • Vj ~ If I was one at your level of intelligence, then you can consider it a waste of time. Had you took any interest in my site, you would have noticed that the experiences you asked me to share is no different there.

    As I see it, you are against any kind of protest unless we improve ourselfs, I disagree with that and think we have a right to protest while we try to improve ourselves.

  • Vj ~ On the other hand, if you first improve yourself, there would be no need to protest. What sensible person can disagree with that?

    Secondly, you believe harsh words are OK in a public fourm like this one, I continue to disagree with that, and you can't convince me otherwise.

  • Vj ~ Then you are not an arya as you profess to be - the Vedic faith opposes all others and wherever it is propagated by altruistic means there can be no compromise. It is better to let a man know he is fool so that he can reflect on it rather than tolerate his ignorance which can benefit neither you nor him. Likewise, I am telling you that you have an ego that will do damage to all effort of good learning. Do you spend any time at all to practice this knowledge (yoga) if not, by what authority are you questioning my wisdom.

    Dialogue 4
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    Imindra wrote - Date: Thu Jul 31, 2003
    Subject: Re: Let us reflect on this great philosophy
    "Many of us do not have the luxury of retiring and devoting our lives to the cause. We try to run our homes, our jobs, and balance that with our 'religion'."
  • Vj ~ It is not a "luxury", it is a reward, earned by years of strenuous effort in my practice of Dharma. I too, once ran a home, had a job and "balance that with our 'religion'." If you cannot cross these minor hurdles of harsh languages, as Bhai RK rightfully put it, and look deep into yourself, you will never be free to enjoy life muchless the dissemination of Vedic thoughts.

    "The book is based on misinterpretation of the Vedas and as a result grievously injures the sentiments of millions of Hindus all over the world."

  • Vj ~ How could the sentiments of millions of Hindus be injured, when Hindus themselves continue to reviled and misinterpret the Vedas as they have done for the past 4,000 thousand years?

    I cannot believe that Arya Samajees have sunk so low in a knowledge that was supposed to lift their intellects above and beyond the sentiments of the ignorant.

    Why do they have to protect the Vedas, the one true revelation, as the Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Jews, etc, do for their own scriptures, when in reality the Vedas is suppose to protect them?

    Couldn't I be right, that they are indeed imbeciles?

    Date: iamindra - Thu Jul 31, 2003
    Subject: Re: New file uploaded to aryasamajonline
    "I am so afraid that if I study these things, I will become a nasty, horrible being such as yourself."

  • Vj ~ Finally you said it "to take your stupidity", it seems to me you are there even before the "study". No intelligent person can deny that I haven't written more good things than a few nasty words, but it shows how a fool quickly learn to be nasty, rather than taking the good out my work. Again, I can tell you why swamiji never preached or debated women, but that will be a lot antagonizing for one of such low mentality.

    "You are not someone I respect,"

  • Vj ~ How can you? You haven't got the knowledge to do do it. If I was looking for the kind of respect you demand, I would have never had a site as I have now.
    If only you knew what kindness was about, you would have helped me to save the less unfortunate, instead of protecting them. In wisdom, whom I aspire to liberate are my brothers and sisters, whether you are offended or not by what I have to say. Then again, if you are offended at the same moment by the ignorant (Mr. Jha) and the learned, then who are you looking forward to to save you?

    "I am convinced that those who really, truly are 'liberated' and have reached that perfect state, are good, kind human beings."

  • Vj ~ You never cease to amaze me! How could you be convinced, when you are still affected by harsh words (weak)?

    you say how quickly a fool learns to be nasty. Now YOU are ALREADY nasty, and have been for a long long time (per your own admission above, you have said a few nasty words - in fact, several but who's counting at this time) - what DOES THAT MAKE YOU??

  • Vj ~ If only you had the wisdom to know, you would have known that it 'DOES MAKE" me a learned person. "Nasty" to what is false (me) is quite different from being nasty (you) to those who are nasty to what is false.

    Dialogue 5
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    Rajeev - Date: Tue Aug 5, 2003
    Subject: Re: New file uploaded to aryasamajonline
    "In many debates with Muslims and Hindu scholars Swami Ji only gave his views on the topic of discussions, he never forced anybody to believe in him."
  • Vj ~ And in spite of such a gentle character, they made several attempts on his life. My friends, in general, it is the truth that offends people. It is not how gentle or harsh it is presented. In reality, harshness exposes the need for urgent rehabilitation.

    : Rajeev kumar - wrote:
    Namaste Vijay Ji,
    I apologise if I hurted your feelings. But as a well wisher of yours from my heart, I said based upon my understanding and observation. One day some person asked Swami Dayananda that perhaps you will attain moksh(emancipation). Swami Ji said that I donot want moksha but I want to serve the people. Now what it shows that Swami Ji was not concerned for the well being of himself or to few of his disciples, but he wanted the well being of everybody.

    Vijay Ji you have the authority to use that stick on me and I think I have the authority to raise my doubts to you.

  • Namaste Rajeevji, I have long conquered emotional and sentimental feelings so there is nothing to apologize for. In other words, I have no feelings to hurt or praise. Whatever I do for mankind is not true feelings, it is the nature of wisdom that demands it. So if a fool is hurt by what I have to say, I am not deterred by it, because I know it is for the fool's own good.

    I know where you stand and it is the reason why you are good enough a teacher for those who cannot put up with my 'crude' way.

    As you said earlier, Swami Virjianand used a stick, it was not a malicious act, but rather to test who is actually ready to put up with any kind of abuse to seek true knowledge. The idea was to teach those who are willing and not wasting his time on those who only complain (weak).

    Swami Dayanand had already attained moksha before he went out to teach the world. Wise men do not think of others before themselves, otherwise, how else would they have become wise.

    Dialogue 6
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    RK wrote: Date: Sat Aug 9, 2003
    Subject: Re: What is prayer?
    Hello VJ, "Prayer without (correct) knowledge"
    What is correct knowledge?
  • Vj ~ A knowledge that is in harmony with reasoning and science and in conformity with natural laws.

    How does one know if one has obtained correct knowledge?

  • Vj ~ One wouldn't know until one has ingrain the proper reasoning habits as laid out on my site - this is why I specifically stress on the different stages of the intellect. If we must be elevated to the functional state we will first have to abandon the static state by total rejection of all that you were taught towards spirituality. Even though it leaves you an unbeliever, it is still better than to remain brainwashed in an irrational ideology. Together with a teacher and the aid of the Light of Truth, we must apply the four subsidiary means of reasoning to elevate us to the discriminating state - knowing truth from untruth or right knowledge from wrong knowledge.

    "purity of body and mind"
    Isn't purity a subjective quality?

  • Vj~ So is the most abstruse science of spirituality (God). When we do Sandhya, the mantras are systematically geared to the cleansing of our physical body by editing all senses, actions and out attention (ethics and moral) before it moves on to God, His nature, attributes and His creation.

    Are we supposed to stay in the stage of subjective analysis?

  • Vj ~ If emancipation is desirable, yes. The three eternal entities God, soul and matter are invisible and can only be known thoroughly by invisible evidences.

    If we are focused on subjective and objective world then how are we going to realize the absolute, if any exists?

  • Vj ~ Because we are born in the conditions of Kaliyug, that is, no inclinations or very little for the truth, we will have to first use the objective means to begin the elevation of the soul. But even that is not enough, since we can literally see creation or with the aid of history to guide us, yet there is difficulty in figuring out how it all came about. It all boils down to effort. A soul that is desperate to seek the truth will find it inspite of the hurdles it may have to cross.

    Please forgive me for posing questions that may be foolish in nature but yet the answers may clear my doubts?

  • Vj ~ No one is born an arya we must strive to become one. When I look back I cannot deny for a moment that I was not a fool somewhere before I began this journey. It is what makes me so proud to be an arya.

    "whatever you pray for, it is only you who first must reap the benefit"
    Does it mean that if I pray then God will become happy and give me all the material wealth?

  • Vj ~ God is all-bliss, He is already happy and not in need of us to make Him happy. Why pray for material wealth when the greatest of all wealth is the wisdom of the Vedas? There is nothing wrong with material wealth, but it must go hand in hand with spiritual wealth. God already has given us His intructions (Vedas) even without our prayer. What we need is inspiration, will and the know how to explore those intructions. This is where prayer becomes essential as well as beneficial to the soul. Prayer, in fact, is only a reminder of what our daily pursuit should be - seeking the correct knowledge and put it into practice.

    If such is the case then why would anyone strive for individual sucess? Everyone would be sitting in home praying to God?

  • Vj ~ Not only that, if we consider how most people are taught to pray, I can sit at home while someone else is doing the prayers for me. Salvation is an individual process, Swami Dayanand has only shown us the way or the path, the rest is up to our own personal effort.

    Rajeev kumar Namaste Vijay Ji ,
    Your answers are really fantastic, to the point and with volumes of knowledge. I hope we will continue to be benefitted with the shower of your blessings.

  • Vj ~ Namaste Rajeevji,
    There are blessings also from a negative approach especially when it is done for the good the human soul. So as Aryas let us display impartiality to whatever way truth is disseminated.

    Dialogue 7
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    Date: Tue Aug 12, 2003 Subject: Re: God and soul - Vikekji
    "it may be that you are reading my mail many souls may be near you they can see you hear you but can not interfere your life in any way."
  • Vj ~ It is true that emancipated souls have no eyes but can see, no ears but can hear, no nose but can smell, etc., etc., but they will not use these gifts to look or listen to any mortal beings or creatures. Though they can roam the atmosphere anywhere because God pervades it, they only communicate with those souls that are also enjoying the blissful state of emancipation. Listening or looking at us serves no purpose whatever for them and it will only be an interruption to their blissful state of emancipation.

    namaste vijay ji it can be both that a soul can enjoy state of happiness as well as it can watch us in my opinion.please correct it if i am wrong.

  • Vj ~ Namaste Vivekji,
    Embodiment is bondage, bondage is pain and suffering, it is definitely not happiness for an elevated soul muchless and emancipated one to be a witness to such misery. While a few are engaged in the correct practice of yoga, most of the world are engaged in hypocrisy of the worst kind, murder, prostitution, adultery, rape, homosexuality, etc., witnessing these horrible sins are not compatible to a blissful state. Swami Dayanand preached to women from behind a curtain, why would he as an emancipated soul want to look at so many in nudity. Furthermore, he would be very much distraught at the poor functioning of the once mighty organization he started, which are busy protecting dharma instead of dharma protecting them. Book knowledge which results in opinions of any kind can only take us so far, but if put into practice we can remove many doubts and come up with rational answers.

    one inference of your last mail touched me from inside.thanks, i have started doing more effort in practicing yoga instead of reading books. i was not able to understand one point that does we protect dharma or dharma protect us. waiting for reply

  • Satyartha Prakasha means "the meaning of the light of truth". We can read it over and over, but all we can gain from it is simply book knowledge to express it as is, but in daily contemplation the meaning comes to light which helps us to ascertain truth from untruth (by a discriminating intellect). It is not a short process but its worth every second of it, especially when the blissful state of yoga is achieved. Book knowledge alone is dangerous because the ego is in control.

    When I said dharma must protect us and not us protecting dharma, I meant that when we are easily offended by what others say or write we are lacking in personal effort to practice even though we have acquired the knowledge. It is the reason they petition and protest like the others who must protect their religion.

    It is a crying shame that arya samajees have already come to the conclusion that they are already self-made 'teachers' and can no longer humble themselves to be students.

    Dialogue 8
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    Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003 - Subject: Re: moksha - Indra
    Namaste Bahenji, Vj ~ This is what I said: "Again, I can tell you why swamiji never preached or debated women, but that will be a lot antagonizing for one of such low mentality."
    Post No. 335
    Indra: Vijai had said in a previous post that Swamiji didn't debate women because women had low mentality.
  • Vj ~ If these two statements carry the same meaning then you are indeed not a good example of women's mentally, are you?

    Indra: Can anyone validate this and possibly explain why Swami Dayanand preached to women from behind a curtain?

  • Vj ~ Swamiji had nothing against women and neither do I, but he insisted that the husbands be taught, so that they in turn can teach their wives. He stressed on the creation of seperate schools (gurukuls) for boys and girls and that each have their own male and female teachers respectively. The intent was not discriminatory but for the good of all, based on the distractions of the opposite sex. He himself, avoid preaching to women for the same reason and that it was the duty of men who entered grihas life or women themselves.
    <>"Had the pattern of virtue not existed among the maharanis, the debauchery of maharajas would have long brought India to ruins."

    Indra: and I will quickly detach myself from any and all Arya Samaj organizations

  • Vj ~ This perhaps may be a good thing for you. Although I had been a member of Arya Samaj for many years, I could not have enlightened myself to this state had I not abandon it altogether. It is the reason you and I are in conflict here. Had I to rely on book knowledge alone as aryasamajees are doing, I could have never propagated this truth as courageously as I have been doing inspite of whom it may hurt. Swamiji had a lots of enemies and so do I, because we have one common motto - "Let him say what is good for another even though it may offend."

    Indra: I trust that this has become a site for rational discussions.

  • Vj ~ "Rational" does not mean that it must go one (your) way all the time. Seek knowledge (Light of Truth) and put it into practice that you can grow in humility and impartiality. It will give you the power to ignore or use what may otherwise be disturbing to assist you to ascertain truth from untruth.

    Dialogue 9
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    Date: Sat Aug 16, 2003
    Subject: Re: moksha - Indra
    Indra: Oh yes, vijai, I do agree. My mis-understanding. You did say I was of such low mentality, not all women. Could you please explain why you think I am of such low mentality?
  • Vj ~ You have already explained it - your "mis-understanding" that I meant you and not all women. Let's put it this way if I am not wise, I am definitely a fool, and if a fool offends one who claims to be an arya, what that does that make you?

    Indra: Could you please explain...- I didn't understand that part. Why didn't he? ... Hmmmnnn.... What state? I don't understand that part at all. Please do explain.

  • Vj ~ It will be useless for me to explain anything to any one in such a state as yours. I can only show you the way to ingraining the proper reasoning habits, not hand it to you. Don't get me wrong, you are not the only one on this board and in this world in such a state. For example, if I explain my present state of perpetual happiness, how can you begin to imagine what it is like, if you are not there yourself?

    Indra: I do know that practising Yoga releases negativity, and the higher states (as has been documented by many sages, yogis, saints, etc.) fills a person with complete dispassion, calmness, clarity of mind, etc. All highly positive energies towards others which helps to draw people towards the possessor of these qualities.

  • Vj ~ Muhammad, besides being an illiterate and murderer, had many wives, one only a child six years old and inspite of it he has now drawn nearly 2 billion people towards him. According to you, in comparison to the number of Arya Samajees Swami Dayanand was a failure. Are sure you understand the disposition of a yogi or what yoga does?

    "The company of the wise are few" and only a few will be drawn. Ignore the hurdles (do less complaining) and study my work (site) it is your only hope.

    Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003
    Subject: Re: moksha - Rajeev kumar
    Namaste Vijai Ji,
    In some previous mail of yours you said that those who have attained the higher levels of Yoga are not affected by the pain and suffering they see nor they are affected by pleasures.In this mail it seems that you are saying otherwise. I think we should protect both Dharma and Dharma protects us as well.

  • Vj ~ Namaste Rajeevji, So far I have been consistent, had I not, I would have won a few friends by now. Don't you think so? Dharma is infallible and those who try to destroy it are themselves hurt by it. Whom do we have to protect dharma from, a fool of course, but can a fool actually do harm to dharma?

    Dharma does not need our protection because if it cannot stand on its own, then it cannot protect us.

    Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003
    Subject: Re: moksha - Indra
    vijai, I would appreciate you referring to me as Indra, not Bahenji. Believe me, I do not deserve such respect from you! But thank you anyway.

  • Vj ~ I cannot change the nature of wisdom, even if I try. All souls desire happiness and it is the nature of wisdom to help in this process, even though, in most cases, it requires painful surgery (harsh words). I understand the conditions in which we take birth, for it is call justice, it is the reason for my crude way of teaching. I can assure you that if we desire higher birth, there is no other way out of our present state of weaknesses.

    And thanks also for your very kind words which is quite inspirational. I did go once to your site a long time ago.

  • Vj ~ Once, as reading the light of truth, is not enough. It takes time to gain in spiritual wisdom and when we have achieved it, it in turn gives us all the time in the world to enjoy its bliss.

    I agree very much with you - you do show that you are in a blissful state.

  • Vj ~ This may be sarcasm, like I said, it will be difficult for one acknowledge such a state if one is not there yet.

    Date: Sun Aug 17, 2003
    Subject: Re: moksha - Dr. Harish Chandra
    I just today took the membership of this group. The following is the first email I have recd and it is quite disturbing to see how a lady has been e-treated, rather ill-treated. Further, Maharsi has been misrepresented.

  • Vj ~ It is a good thing that you didn't read the last three chapters of the Light of Truth instead of the beginning otherwise you would have abandon Arya Samaj for the way Hindus, Christians and Muslims were "ill-treated" by Swamiji.

    Not only that Arya Samaj stands for rationality, it stands for love - the seventh principle states "One should have all dealings with all in accordance with love, law and propriety."

  • Vj ~ And is it not love to assist in the liberation of the soul, even though it may offend? The duty of "love, law and propriety" can only be accorded its rightful place by who one has acquired a discriminating intellect, knowing truth from untruth.

    I hope to see better standards on this site.

  • Vj ~ All standards should be welcomed, if not, how can those with poor standards can be elevated?

    Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003
    Subject: Re: Arya Samaj & Women - Sher B. Singh
    It is also a shame that an elderly and learned woman member, who has been a regular contributor, and also an effective 'moderator' of debates on this group has been so degradingly hounded out of here by one mongrel.

  • Vj ~ Namaste Sher,
    If this site is the work of a "mongrel" then mentally you must be certainly lower than one.

    If you had any brains whatever you would have read the dialogue from the very beginning to justify your response, if indeed such a statement was made.

    Dialogue 10
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    Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003
    Subject: Re: moksha - Rajeev
    namaste Vijai Ji,
    VJ ~ "Whom do we have to protect dharma from, from a fool of course, but can a fool actually do harm to dharma?"
    Raj: In past Jains and Muslims burnt the Vedic Books.Lot of Vedic knowledge got wasted due to such foolishness. Moreover if somebody says otherwise about Vedas and misrepresent them then what you will do? Do you keep sitting idle that Vedas will take care of themselves? Arya Samaj for more than last 100 yrs is propagating the Vedic Dharma in the form of lectures, by publishing books and through other activities. Is it Adharma ? So in this way we need to prevent them to do so further is Dharma.
  • Vj ~ Namaste Rajeevji,
    Very true, but if you are not first protected by dharma, you are not the one to prevent the abuse of dharma. For instance, as many would think, I am the one 'abusing' dharma here and Bahen Indra was the one trying to prevent this abuse but instead she left and I am still here. Now if she is 'weaker' than the 'abuser' how is dharma to be protected?

    Publishing books alone cannot protect dharma as those who are authoring these books are weak. We don't need more books, we need to put into practice what is already there.

    Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003
    Subject: Re: Improving the standard of this group - Anupam
    Deen ji and other members, We have had this discussion about "personal attacks" and most of us agreed that no one should go down to that level.

  • Vj ~ The level is not "down" my friend but elevated, it is what give birth to the movement of Arya Samaj. The attacks level by Swami Dayanand were personal ones because one's faith is always personal and to attack it created fury in those who cherished it as their own. Personal attacks is as detrimental as alcohol is to the soul, but alcohol can be medicine also depending on the situation, the same with "personal attacks". It is the weak (followers of false dogmas) who are easily offended by it and if those who claim to be aryas are still affected by it, then they haven't made any progress at all which means Swamiji's works have all gone to waste.

    Dear Vj ji, please do not use personal attacks in future posts.

  • Vj ~ Swamiji was urged not criticize islam because he was enjoying the hospitality of a muslim, he was urged not to criticize idol- worship because hindus took it personal. Where would we have all been, had he agreed to do so? You should continue the study but make a lot of effort to put what you have studied into practice and urge others to do the same.

    I respect the knowledge you possess

  • Vj ~ It is a hypocrite who respects the knowledge and not the propagator and his/her methods. Respect of knowledge cannot give us salvation, you must strive for it also.

    but loath the personal statements you make.

  • Vj ~ The weak cannot protect the weak, so as administrator of this forum do what you feel is necessary, but I will not barter my soul to appease the ignorant.

    If you find it impossible to change then please create a separate Yahoo group (call it vjsingh or get_abused_here or whatever)

  • Vj ~ Why should I do that when I already have my own site? It is a pity that others here, with the exception of a few like RKji and Rajeevji, don't have the ability to recognize the true blessings of swamiji due to my presence here.

    and take like minded people with you, although I doubt if you will find any here.

  • Vj ~ So true, if there were, they would been engaged in shastrarth with me at my site. I do not expect anyone here to heed my message because of my 'crude' method for it is a known fact that according to true Vedic tradition, it is the student who must come to the Guru and not the Guru to the students. Perhaps, the reason my methods are crude to begin with.

    If anyone has further suggestions on how we can improve the standard of discussion, please share them with the group.

  • Vj ~ Any other suggestion but mine can only further weaken the movement of Arya Samaj. All you people talk about is books, who here but me stress on practice? What good is (book) knowledge if it is not put into practice (action)? Your weaknesses are good examples of book knowledge, while my courage to disseminate it is the example of practice. What more evidence do you need? When the ignorant were tired of Swami's barrage of criticism they schemed to put an end to his life. So if you want to burden yourself with huge sin of complying to those who are unhappy with my methods of dissemination, go right ahead, but do not expect me to come to your level or those you protect?

    Dialogue 11
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    Date: Mon Aug 18, 2003
    Subject: Re: moksha - Dr. Vivek Arya
    namaste aryagans
    is it a myth that after a series of some good mail i am seeing a row of some unwanted mails.
  • Namaste Vivekji,
    Vj ~ The wise can draw nectar from poison, strive for wisdom and like me you will welcome both wanted and "unwanted" mails. It is easy to figure out how much the movement of aryasamaj has weakened, since I am like a shockwave to its members.

    vijai ji i ask you a question that which vedic literature permits a yogi to use of words like nudity.

  • Vj ~ A yogi can use any word, positive or negative, because he is not affected by it. It is the negative that helps us to understand the positive or how much we have advanced without it affecting us.

    what the swami dayanand has done for women in last 1000 years i found not even a single example like that. Swami Dayanand preached to women from behind a curtain of -----

  • Vj ~ I do not dispute what Swamiji has done for women and the world, but as a liberated soul he must take precautions in whatever way necessary inspite of whom it offends to avoid anything that can infect the purity of his soul. Even eating is a sin, it is the reason why the yogis in their latter stage of their lives (state of samadhi) give up eating and live off oxygen.

    Rajeev kumar wrote:
    > Namaste VJ Ji,
    May I ask you what made you remark that women are of low mentality and you find something from swamiJis life supporting this, this is what I came to understand from postings of members on this forum. I think we have either mis interpreted your meaning otherwise you can not make such remarks.

  • Namaste Rajeevji, There is no where on this forum I have said that "women are of low mentality". As a matter of fact, it would be one of low mentality who would start such a propaganda and lower yet for those who have banded together to support it. All those idiots, I say idiots, because who else would join the bandwagon as 'defenders' of the faith to make accusations without the correct evidence.

    I think we have either misinterpreted your meaning otherwise you can not make such remarks.

  • Vj ~ This is an intelligent approach indeed, but you come to your own conclusion after reading POST NO. 335 where it all started. And please quote it out clearly and help these poor lamented souls to see, read and understand it.

    Rajeev kumar wrote:
    Namaste Vijai ji,
    I read it somewhere that a yogi can leave for more duration of time without eating than a non yogi , but it is against the law of nature if we say that a yogi can exist without consuming eatables after a certain duration.

  • Vj ~ Namaste Rajeevji,
    If and when a true yogi abandons an old way they could never go back to it. As a matter of fact, emancipation is about conquering the condition of heat and cold, sleep, hunger, etc. and a yogi's state of samadhi is that preview of it (emancipation). We can read from now to doomsday and we can be no further ahead in wisdom if we don't put it to practice.
    It is not against the law of nature to quit eating altogether, but it is when we can't avoid eating late evening.

    PS: I read your response to those who want to leave this forum and I am proud to say, that this world is not totally bereft of souls as yours. Keep up your practice, and know that this forum will never be deprived of a true teacher, even when I am gone.

    Dialogue 12
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003 - "aryasamajonline" wrote:
    Subject: Re: Improving the standard of this group - Anupam
    Namestey Vj ji,
    By personal attacks I mean using derogatory and foul language in conversing with others.
  • Vj ~ If you respect the knowledge I disseminate then, whatever you consider "derogatory and foul" from me has to be medicinal, use it for the good of your own soul. If you find it to be poisonous know that you are not yet conditioned to be an arya.

    "You still haven't quoted where Swami ji used it in his discussions with others. I had asked this off you earlier, you never substantiated your claims that Swami ji used derogatory language."

  • Vj ~ Why do you need a quote, are you that stupid to figure out that his criticism was worst than mine? He survived 16 attempts on his life and finally lost it, while I am still alive and only equivalent to a "barking dog".

    "No one is telling you not to criticize, just don't use personal attacks. It is demeaning, condesending and inhibits open discussion."

  • Vj ~ "demeaning, condesending" to whom? Wherever such conditions exist it is the best chance an 'arya' has to make progress. It is the true test of his faith.

    "I don't think it is hypocrisy to tell someone to mend his/her offensive ways.

  • Vj ~ If you are not certain, how would you know if it is meant to be offensive or it is done for the good of the soul. It is the knowledge that makes the person and if you respect the knowledge how can you not respect the person? You are alike those who oppose Swami Dayanand, simply because they were ignorant to understand what he really stood for.

    "I don't think anything here will give any of us salvation."

  • Vj ~ Again, you are not certain! It is fool who argue when he is not sure especially when it comes to salvation. I always stress on study of the correct knowledge and more on the practice of it, if it does not lead to salvation what else can?

    "We all have to do our own swadhyaya (self-study) and aachar (practice) to acheive it."

  • Vj ~ Very true, I don't know of any who claim to be an arya who don't know what is required to gain salvation, but if it is that simple why are 'aryas' still so disenchanted by "abusive language"?

    "Again, I'm not sure how you compared my mind with yours and came to that conslusion.

  • Vj ~ I never compare minds, it is always the intellects. I have an intellect (discriminating) that is not affected by abusive language, so it is very easy to make a comparison with one that is affected by it.

    "Someone who has to resort to abusive language, who finds it impossible to change in a social setting, is in my mind of a weaker intellect.

  • Vj ~ There you again, my intellect cannot be judged by "mind" and according to my intellect a life-guard cannot abandon the method of physical abuse especially when it is necessary to save the victim or both of them. If my I am weaker how come you are affected by what doesn't affect me?

    "If you do have your own site, why do you feel the need to come here and shower everyone with your abusive language?"

  • Vj ~ The territory of the learned is unlimited because they have no fear in propagating true knowledge. It is fools who would want to be confined to an environment where truth can't hurt them.

    "As I said earlier, stay there, we will refer such people who can tolerate & appreciate such language to you."

  • Vj ~ I am quite sure many fools would have gladly liked Swamiji to have disappeared also, but it is not the nature of learned men to do so. Besides, one affected by "abusive language" is not intelligent enough to know "such people" who can tolerate and appreciate my way.

    "I visited your site and didn't find any foul and abusive language there in the discussions I saw. Why do you think its alright to engage in the same here and not on your own site?

  • Vj ~ Well it shows that even being nice is worst than being nasty. Being nice on my site aryas did not come to chat with me, but 'nasty' they are all involved with me. This is good, now that they have a chance to elevate themselves through critical thinking.

    "Why do you care about Arya Samaj? According to your previous posts you have long shown your back to it. So continue on your way, and let others work to improve its conditions.

  • Vj ~ Well can't you see if I didn't turn my back I would have been like you and all 'aryas' here subjected by "abusive language". My reasoning tells me that it is better to be in the courageous position of dishing it out, rather than the weak position of taking it. By the way, who here is capable of improving the present condition - one who is also subjected to "abusive language" or one who isn't? I can leave but who can guarantee that another one like me won't come again, then what?

    "We all know pratice is important, we talk about book knowledge because that tells you what to practice. You can't practice while you are surfing the web, can you?

  • Vj ~ It still leaves you at a dead-end since it is important to know "HOW". Can you tell me HOW so that I can elevate myself from this "abusive language"? Please 'help' me, as you seem to know that it can't be done while surfing the web!

    "Your expulsion from this group will not be equivalent to "murder of Swamiji", it would be equivalent to shooing a dog that keeps barking and does not allow people to have a useful discussion.

  • Vj ~ What kind of people can be involved in such "useful discussion", if all it takes is a barking "dog" to disrupt it? Bravo, aryasamajees would first shoot the dog and continue their dialogue, seems a good reason to turn my back on such an organisation.

    It won't be a sin, as an adminstrator, it would be my duty.

  • Vj ~ True, even fools have duty. So you who "know practice is important", who "talk about book knowledge" and who know "what to practice", but do not know HOW, know what is "sin" vs "duty"?

    "There, I have "elevated" myself to your level by engaging in personal, and demeaning comments. Hope you are pleased to see what you are preaching is having an effect.

  • Vj ~ It's has been quite sudden but that's excellent, now you should be, like me, unaffected by "abusive language". Now you and I have nothing else to quarrel over. Too bad it didn't happen before you made this lenghty response, you could have save yourself a lot of valuable time.

    Dialogue 13
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    Subject: Re: Arya Samaj & Women - Sher B. Singh
    "Namaste Vjji,
    Someone once said "What's in the mind comes out of one's mouth". In todays e-world, we can extend that to say "What's in the mind comes out through one's keyboard".
  • Vj ~ Aryas are suppose to have intellectual reasoning, what came out of swamiji's mouth, was in his intellect, the same with me. When it is the mind, one is easily offended by "abusive language".

    "You have given us enough samples of "Whats in your mind" on this forum."

  • Vj ~ Well said, since your intellect is static, it has be coming from your mind.

    "If there is anything good that you have to share with us, please do so, but first I suggest that you take a course in "communication skills".This is probably one of the more important areas that you appear to be deficient in.

  • Vj ~ You really think I should risk taking such a course, after all it got swamiji killed.

    "Else why would just about everyone on this forum get repelled from you and what you are trying to forcibly let flow on this forum."

  • Vj ~ Very simple, the age of kaliyug, if you understand natural laws, dictates that fools would make up the majority in any circumstances. It was the same circumstance swamiji had to face also, but what is so terrible about this situation, mine is aryasamajees while his were hindus.

    "Then you might want to ask yourself and then tell us all what the words "Arya" and "Noble" mean. I really look forward to your feedback on this - I really do.

  • Vj ~ Since you are not there yet, I will gladly tell you - "Arya" means "noble", and "noble" means one who is never affected by "abusive language" of any kind.

    "Raha baat aapke website kaa", let people who have seen it judge for themselves.

  • Vj ~ True knowledge cannot be judged by vision alone otherwise the blind will be deprived, but by reading, listening and studying followed by deep contemplation (yoga) or as swamiji put it "the four subsidiary means of reasoning".

    "Then again, what use is such a website when the supposed author does not appear to have the corresponding "achar" to what the site might be trying to preach.

  • Vj ~ How would you know of "the corresponding achar" needed, when you are still bugged down by "abusive languaage"?

    "I wish you well - I really do."

  • Vj ~ "If wishes were horses beggars would ride." True Aryas do not wish, it leads to false hope because those who wish it, also dwells in it. Effort Bhaiji, we must strive by effort in practice - One reason why so many, who called themselves "aryas", are busy writing and selling books when the Light of truth has everything necessary to give us birth again in Satyug or even emancipation, is that they do not understand the meaning of it.

    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    Subject: Re: Arya Samaj & Women - Sher B. Singh
    "Appears that you have a natural tendency to engage in discussions with fools. P

  • Vj ~ It is true, who else should the learned be engaged with, if not the weak in intelligence?

    "What does that say about your own self? By doing this, aren't you making your self a big fool, thats if you are not already the greatest fool?

  • Vj ~ If I am deemed "the greatest fool" by fools, I only wonder why I am not capable of being the leader of this forum? Perhaps I am not the greatest fool after all.

    "Nevertheless, may GOD give you peace and my best wishes to you and your family.

  • Vj ~ I am at peace, it is the reason I am here to put those who are easily offended by "abusive language" at peace also. Thank you and may you find the peace that will overcome offensive language.

    "May you also one day see the LIGHT of TRUTH that you continue to be blinded from."

  • Vj ~ You have seen it, how come it takes the "greatest fool" to offend you?

    "If you try hard enough, you too can succeed, and I know you will - its just a matter some more time."

  • Vj ~ Succeed at what, become weak like you and those you defend to be offended by the "greatest fool"?

    Dialogue 14
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    Subject: Re: a special request to Mr. Vj from Harish Chandraji,
    "I have joined this group 2 days ago when I am in the US though I live in Hyderabad, India. My daughter at my home has complained that "a large number of emails in very bad taste" are coming from this site.
  • Vj ~ If you think that is bad wait until the spam phornography starts to appear. I am getting them everyday also, but what must we do sit and complain? No, we must uplift our mental state to rise above those things and if what I am teaching is not beneficial to the cause then you have a deeper problem with those who with spam messages than what I propagate here.

    "I have just now sent her a reply on the following lines, "... Yes, I have seen that the contents of the emails are in very bad taste. But since this is a site of arya samaj, I would like to remain its member. But as your father, I instruct you to delete all the emails coming from this site without opening them. This may sound like censorship but let it be so..."

  • Vj ~ It was good advice given to her. I too would have done the same upon failing to enlighten myself to help my daughter to deal with it in a rational way or perhaps, you don't want her to know that dharma has failed you.

    "The point I am trying to make is that this site is so bad that a father has to ask his daughter not to have a look at it because of the poor taste, which ultimately gives bad name to Arya samaj!

  • Vj ~ If critical thinking can do so much damage to arya samaj, it must be comprised of buffoons, rogues, vagabonds and scoundrels, no different from those swamiji had to face in his time.

    "May I take this opportunity to request Mr Vj to take a break for 15 days."

  • Vj ~ A wise man is never in need of a break, for he is always at break. In fact, time is never against him and occasions like these make his break far more exciting.

    "I can fully understand his state of mind."

  • Vj ~ Elevate yourself so that you can understand my state of intellect, it will do you a lot more good.

    "It's difficult for anyone to explain to him what is going wrong with this web site."

  • Vj ~ It is exactly what the retarded usually say, when they look out from inside, "they are probably trying to keep us a way from the madness outside." Do you know of any fool who readily accepts he is a fool? So that is what a fool would say when the learned appear among them.

    "But if he genuinely wants to understand the problem and is genuinely interested in the Arya Samaj movement then he should make this small sacrifice of remaining absolutely quiet for next 15 days. Then he may be able to understand what the problem is.

  • Vj ~ Are sure you are not asking for a break for yourself and those who are offended? If I didn't understand the problem here, I would not have been here. The problem is Arysamajees are trying to protect dharma when dharma is suppose to protect them, as a Christian, Muslim or Jew trying to protect their religion, when their religion is suppose to protect them.

    Dialogue 15
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    Reply to Baigan Bhindi - Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003
    i had the following questions for everyone on this forum :- 1. how many on this forum are pure vegetarians, and how many eat meat ? honest answers please.
  • Vj ~ I really don't know how many are pure vegetarians but I know I am, so is my whole family down to my youngest grandchild.

    2. what percentage of the India's hindu population follow the arya samaaj movement ? is it 0.01%, 0.1%, 1%, or 10% ?

  • Vj ~ I am not quite sure where it stands, but I will assume it stands at less than 1% of India's hindu population.

    From: sher one Date: Sun Sep 28, 2003
    Subject: Re: [aryasamajonline] Re: MEAT EATING, ARYA SAMAJ, NAME
    Namaste (Vegetable) Baigan Bhindi Ji,
    Everyone, except Vijai Singh Ji, who responded to your questions either side stepped the question or questioned your reasons for asking. I think that speaks volumes, as your questions hit at the heart of what many here are happy to preach, but perhaps are uncomfortable practising.

    Take for example your first question, which asks whether we are vegetarians or not. There should be nothing wrong with this question if we are truly aryans, unless we are pretending and are therefore hypocrites. The evasive reponses clearly paint a very grim picture of our many so called aryans here. As for me I was born to vegetarian parents and am proud to say that even being a 4th generation from the diaspora, and inspite of being brought up outside of India in the heart of the Western culture, I am still a pure vegetarian and have still maintained strong sense of our 'hindu' culture in my family.

    Then the question of the percentage of India's hindu's who follow the arya samaj movement. Vijai Singh Ji points out straight that the figure may be less than 1%. Others talk about one or only a few are enough to effect change. This is again laughable since the change these are talking about is nowhere to be seen. Perhaps Vijai Singh Ji's words need to be taken heed of if this 1% is to be converted to 10% and then to 100%. Else, our so-called arayans here are set to remain in dis-illusionment.

    Regarding name change, again I think Vijai Singh Ji has answered this quite well, and I concur with that. [I do understand that this question has some relation to the manner in which you have used vegetable names in your own name].

    Reply to Sanjeev - Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003
    Namaste Sanjeevji,"As per the vedas, the wise should let their actions speak for them rather than getting into verbal self-propaganda."

  • Vj ~ It is contrary to good reasoning to speak of the wise if you are not wise yourself. In the first place the wise can never get into any "verbal self-propaganda" and if it seems to be so, then it can only be the conclusion of the ignorant.

    Secondly, the worst Bhindiji can be, is a fool, but why can it not be for the delight of the learned, since only the wise can draw nectar (wisdom) from poison (fool)?

    And lastly, if Bhindiji integrity is questionable, then he/she has definitely come to the right place. Aren't we supposed to be aryas who are in possession of the only knowledge that can "make the world noble" which can help or change people such as Bhindiji?

    Reply to Sanjeev - ate: Mon Sep 29, 2003
    Namaste Sanjeevji,"Vedas talk of team effort which implies that if I am weak, still I will help other realise his strengths. even if I sin due to my lack of will power, I will extoll others to rise above such mental weaknesses."

  • Vj ~ If this is indeed the message of the Vedas we might as well become Christians or Muslims, since these faiths are fed by men of vile and wretched characters - "do as I say and not as I do".

    If you are weak how can you make others strong, if you are unhappy how can you make others happy? The message of the Vedas must be taught by example or actions (due to immense practice) and not words alone. Frankly speaking, if you don't know the meaning of the Satyartha Prakasha it is useless to dwell on the Vedas.

    You of all persons should know that Swamiji's character was his weapon against ignorance. Had he been weak the first attempt on his life would have been the last and Arya Samaj would have been dead before it was born. And let me make this clear to you Arya Samaj came about because of one man and not a team. Similarly, salvation is only possible through individual effort and never collective means.

    You are like most of your fellow aryas, ready to be destroyed by the ego brought about by book knowledge alone. Let it go my friend and humble yourself to the practice of acquiring good reasoning habits.

    Dialogue 16
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    Reply to Sanjeev - Date: Mon Sep 29, 2003
    Namaste Sanjeevji,
    Subject: Re: MEAT EATING, ARYA SAMAJ, NAME "You took me wrong."
  • Vj ~ It is what you lack by practice makes you think I took you wrong.

    "If everyone starts thinking that he/she would teach only when he/she has gained perfection, then no one would be left to teach."

  • Vj ~ Your whole response is based on book knowledge and that is all you will be stuck with if you are bent on teaching only. Won't it be the best thing for your soul if perfection is achieved even though no one is left to teach? Do I have to ask you which should come first?

    "Of course one should lead by example, and that is the best way. But if one is not capable of exemplifying, still he should preach the virtues of vedic living."

  • Vj ~ For a long time I was of the opinion that your method was alright, but look how divided and weak Arya Samajees have become, that they can hardly accept or recognise one with an exemplified character when one shows up.

    Recently Brahmachari Subhanand travelled all the way from Toronto to New York (his own time (3 days) and expense of course) at the invitation of Dr. Satish Prakash to attend the opening of his 'gurukul' as he (Satish) called it and it is certainly not his first attempt of forming one. For those who don't know the two studied together in India. Brahmchariji was asked to speak for one minute and not only that, he was told to speak on Dr. Prakash's family. If Bhai Satish had ten speakers including himself, who could have done more justice in disseminating true dharma to our young people there but a Brahmachari? Who is mightier than a Brahmachari in character and wisdom that he must be told when and what to speak?

    This is what I meant by the ego of the low-minded who are bent on depriving our young people of a true veer of Maharishi Swami Dayanand Sarawati.

    Incidentally, most of those who are active praticipants of Dr. Satish Prakash's organization, are former students of Brahmachariji from Guyana.

    Dialogue 17
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    Reply Sanjeevji - Date: Tue Sep 30, 2003
    Namaste Sanjeevji,
    "I would again emphasize that let us discuss the issues rather than personalities. I do not intend to make this discussion a battle of egos."
  • Vj ~ Again the issues are about preaching only and the peronalities are about study and practice. If you are going to dwell on the issues then you are engage in the battle of egos and it is your own.

    "I completely agree that if one is bent on teaching alone, he cannot progress."

  • Vj ~ Isn't that what you are doing? Until now you haven't mentiioned anything about practice while I am consistently laying emphasis on study and practice.

    "But as I emphasised earlier, if one is bent only on practice, still he cannot progress."

  • Vj ~ How can that be ever possible with you when you already have the knowledge to do it? It is obvious one can never turn to practice alone since it requires one to first have some knowledge of some kind before initiating practice. For example, if one doesn't know what a spark plug is and its function how can one begin the practice of applying a tool to it?

    "Both have to go hand in hand, as per the vedas."

  • Vj ~ It seems to me the Light of Truth was a total waste of time since you only lay stress on the Vedas. So tell me, since you know so much of the Vedas, where begins the point of it going hand in hand?

    "Please note that Vedas is not for the souls who have already reached Moksha, it is for those who want to."

  • Vj ~ So you think it is best to skip elementary and high school and go straight to university? Think about it my friend, if the Vedas are good for those who want moksha, what was the need for a Reformer such as Swami Dayanand? This is Kaliyug intellectually we have fallen therefore the need to gradually elevate our intellect must begin with good reasoning to ascertain truth from untruth as Swamiji has done so well by his teachings. I guess it is your ego that prevents you from perusing my site to truly understand what I truly stand for.
    The Vedas is indeed for those who have attained samadhi, because it is only they, in their meditation, can decipher the true meaning of the mantras. In reality, they can't give us salvation, they can only show us the path and as Swamiji did, he first lay stress on good reasoning to begin this journey.

    "Explain me why rigveda says that let us progress together. Explain what is meant by the sholoka: Sangachhadhwam Samvadadhwam Samwo MAnansi JAnataam Deva Bhaagam Yatha Purve Sanjaanaa Upasate Sahna Vavtu sahnau Bhunaktu sah Viryam karvavahe Tejasvi navadhitamastu Ma vidwishavahe Are these shloka only for those who have reached perfection?"

  • Vj ~ My dad taught me that mantra and many more since I was a little child and yet I became an atheist. Every Arya samajee knows the mantra and its meaning, but yet Arya Samaj stands divided more than ever, why? It is this division that affected me when I was only a youth. How come you and I differ so much if it means we should progress together? It doesn't matter how well you know the mantras, what good is it, without practice? Our thoughts can only be in harmony with each other when we both have practiced.

    "By your logic no parents should teach the children good sanskaars because being ordinary mortals we haven't reached perfect sanskaars ourselves."

  • Vj ~ No my logic specifically states, that children learn better by example. And if parents come with some good sanskaras it will inspire a child to seek true knowledge. I am from a family of 7 brothers, but not all of us have made such progress in this knowlege as I have even though the same oppurtunity was available, because that is what my father's good sanskaras could only reap.

    Vj ~ Won't it be the best thing for your soul if perfection is achieved even though no one is left to teach? Do I have to ask you which should come first?
    "The best thing for my soul would be when I reach perfection and also do my best to strengthen the path of perfection for others.

  • Vj ~ You haven't answered the question at all.

    "And I cannot achieve perfection unless anyone teaches me."

  • Vj ~ True, but how do you know that I am not that teacher? The fact is, is that you are so obscess with teaching, the trait of the ego of course, that when a teacher of perfection does come your way, you will continue argue in the same manner. The truth is, one of perfection will first tell you your faults when your ego is expecting praises for your effort, and the former you won't accept so who will teach you?

    "If I am talking Moksha with you thats because people in past and present have taught me this concept. If I am writing to you in English to communicate, again someone taught me. None of them were people who had reached perfection. They were people who told me what is the way for perfection."

  • Vj ~ You mean they were people who have read only and haven't practice, right? Isn't it the reason why you are still at their level and those that you teaching will end up just like you also - without perfection.

    "And unless we continue teaching the right, how can we expect people who perfect the practice of what is being taught."

  • Vj ~ I am not saying one shouldn't read and teach, I am asking at what point the practice starts. If you don't know, then what good is the teaching?

    "We all say that Ahimsa and Satya are great virtues: we tell it to each other, to our children. But none of us has reached perfction in Ahimsa and Satya. Do you imply we should stop teaching their virtues?

  • Vj ~ You may have read the Satyartha Prakasha, if you did, I can tell that you don't understand its meaning. Swamiji said that the practice of virtue in ignorance is still Avidya.

    "You can have your own views but I would strongly advocate continual of this teaching."

  • Vj ~ I too once supported your views but quick to know that to continue without practice was doing more harm than good, not to society only but even more disastrous for my soul. Now we have a bunch of 'aryas' all divided in their own communities, where a Brahmachari is not even welcome.

    "The bottomline is that what we teach and our very motivation to teach should not be personality dependent. We should just continue preaching what is true, what is right regardless of whether we ourselves have reached perfection or not. Not only will it help others get perfect but also enable us to improve our own practice of the truth.

  • Vj ~ So you must know by now, since the birth of Arya Samaj, who has reached perfection by it? And if you know who they are, why are you not perfect yet by their perfections?

    " But yes, if you imply empty teaching with NO emphasis at all on practice, that is hypocrisy."

  • Vj ~ Then aren't you a hypocrite by your own words since the emphasis of practice cannot be done by you who haven't done any yourself?

    "This is like keeping oneself in delusion. Ishopanishad says that those who are engrossed only in avidya fall into darkness. and those who possess only vidya but NO practice, they fall into even greater darkness. Some scholars take avidya to imply karma and vidya to imply gyan."

  • Vj ~ It actually says that rituals without knowledge is a sin (appplies to those you are teaching) and knowledge without action is even a greater sin (applies to you).

    "But the essence is that unless we have the right balance of knowledge and practice, unless we do both we cannot progress. None should stop at any moment."

  • Vj ~ I agree, but since you haven't done the practice, aren't you blindly misleading those you are teaching by not telling them how and when the practice must begin.

    "Perheps what you are refering to as lack of practice is lack of intention of practice. What I am refering to by lack of practice is presence of intention but lack of capabilities to practice. In first case, I agree preaching is hypocricy. but in latter case, for sure preaching is a way to progress."

  • Vj ~ Where is the progress? Do some practice my friend, only then you will be able to visualize what truly consists of progress. Right you don't even know how much you are hurting your own soul, muchless to speak of progress.

    PS: I would not like to discuss the incident you have mentioned. Because neither I know anything about the incident nor is this a relevant forum.
    Vj ~ Well you brought up the subject of Brahmacharya, it seems you don't even know what a brahmacharya is? Brahmachari Subhanandji can never be acknowledged by Arya Samaj anywhere in this world because his first motive will be speak of the weaknesses of Arya Samaj themselves. If he must, he will have become weak himself by refraining from speaking of their weaknesses, to be welcome into their fold and he being a true brahmachari would neve do that. He is adored by the young people everywhere he goes, but that too, becomes a problem, because when young people change usually the parents are the first to rebel when their weaknesses are pointed out - the way of life today, it is the young who are truly deprived under the banner of Arya Samaj.

    Dialogue 18
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    Date: Tue Aug 19, 2003
    From: aryasamajonline - Anupam
    Subject: Message not approved: Moderation in place again
    Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003
    Due to the nature of discussion we have started having in the last few days, I'm putting the breaks on again. They will be in place until people limit personal attacks and self glorification emails.

    From:satish prakash
    Bhai Anupam ji, Namaste
    Thank you for your involvement. I have been reading the past posts, and was beginning to question the direction in which the "discussion" was heading.
    Dr. Satish Prakash

    Namaste Bhai Satish Gopieji,
    Vj ~ Why would it matter in what direction shastrarth take, aren't we in possession of the knowledge above all other knowledges to be the least concern? Should Muslims or Christians truly speak their minds of Swami Dayanand who has seriously contradicted their faith, are we to silence them by moderation as they would do on theirs? If you hold a Ph.d, but don't have the wisdom to handle any of these situation, isn't it best that you start to do some serious reflection?

    Vj ~ Namaste Anupamji,
    You should know by now that truth cannot be ascertained without exposing what is false. It is not wrong altogether to question the direction of any posts here but be partial also in pointing whatever truth they may contain. So if you have appointed yourself to run this forum keep in mind that ascertaining truth is always a two-way street and never one way.

    From:aryasamajonline - Anupam
    Namestey Vj Ji,
    We have had this discussion before - regarding content of the post and making the discussion personal. As I mentioned earlier, I would not let any personal comments that don't help the discussion go through. My aim is very clear, and that is to use this fourm for the good of all. If I see it getting bogged down in rat holes of personal conversation, I'll stop it. You are right about the fact that I should be impartial. I believe I am.

    Vj ~ I did not reply to aryasamajonline on the stance they have taken but have instead withdrawn from the group entirely since moderation is contrary to the principle of true shastrarth especially when dealing with the most abstruse science of the Divine.

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    "Just as color cannot be perceived by ears, nor sound by eyes; in like manner, the Eternal Supreme Spirit is not perceptible to the senses. He can only be seen by a pure soul through the purity of heart, acquisition of knowledge and the practice of yoga. Just as one cannot reap the advantages of knowledge without acquiring it, likewise the Supreme Spirit cannot be seen without the practice of yoga and gaining the highest knowledge." The Light of Truth

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